Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

What's happening in your world? Discuss it here.
Forum rules
Play nice. We will be watching

Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Tesseracts » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:27 am

Michelle Carter, who encouraged her boyfriend to kill himself 3 years ago, was finally found guilty of "involuntary" manslaughter.

Here is the full text message transcript. Please read before coming to any conclusions.
Spoiler: show
Carter: I think your parents know you’re in a really bad place.

I’m not saying they want you to do it but I honestly feel like they can accept it.

They know there is nothing they can do. They’ve tried helping.

Everyone’s tried, but there is a point that comes where there isn’t anything anyone can do to save you, not even yourself.

And you’ve hit that point and I think your parents know you’ve hit that point.

You said your mom saw a suicide thing on your computer and she didn’t say anything.

I think she knows it’s on your mind and she’s prepared for it.

Everyone will be sad for a while but they will get over it and move on.

They won’t be in depression. I won’t let that happen.

They know how sad you are, and they know that you are doing this to be happy and I think they will understand and accept it.

They will always carry you in their hearts.

Conrad: Aww. Thank you, Michelle.

Carter: They will move on for you because they know that’s what you would have wanted.

They know you wouldn’t want them to be sad and depressed and be angry and guilty.

They know you want them to live their lives and be happy.

So they will for you. You’re right. You need to stop thinking about this and just do it because over turning always kills, over thinking.

Conrad: Yeah, it does. I’ve been thinking about it for too long.

Carter: Always smile, and, yeah, you have to just do it. You have everything you need. There is no way you can fail. Tonight is the night. It’s now or never.

Carter: [D]on’t be scared. You already made this decision and if you don’t do it tonight you’re gonna be thinking about it all the time and stuff all the rest of your life and be miserable.

You’re finally going to be happy in heaven. No more pain. No more bad thoughts and worries.

You’ll be free. It’s okay to be scared and it’s normal. I mean, you’re about to die.

I would be concerned if you weren’t scared, but I know how bad you want this and how bad you want to be happy.

You have to face your fears for what you want.

Carter: “If you don’t think about it, you won’t think about failing.

You’ll just do it and then thinking you’ll succeed.

Conrad: Right. That’s what I’m talking about. I read so much about failed attempts gone wrong that it’s gotten me discouraged.

Carter: Yeah, exactly, so stop doing that. There is more success than there are failures.

Conrad: Are you kidding me?

Carter: You have to look at it that way and people only fail because they have the same mindset as you. Thinking they’ll fail.

Conrad: I really want to believe you.

Carter: Why don’t you.

Carter: You can’t think about it. You just have to do it. You said you were gonna do it. Like I don’t get why you aren’t.

Conrad: I don’t get it either. I don’t know.

Carter: So I guess you aren’t gonna do it then. All that for nothing. I’m just confused. Like you were so ready and determined.

Conrad: I am gonna eventually. I really don’t know what I’m waiting for but I have everything lined up.

Carter: No, you’re not, Conrad. Last night was it. You kept pushing it off and you say you’ll do it, but you never do. It’s always gonna be that way if you don’t take action. You’re just making it harder on yourself by pushing it off. You just have to do it. Do you want to do it now?

Conrad: Is it too late? I don’t know. It’s already light outside. I’m gonna go back too sleep. Love you. I’ll text you tomorrow.

Carter: No. It’s probably the best time now because everyone is sleeping. Just go somewhere in your truck and no one is really out there right now because it’s an awkward time. If you don’t do it now you’re never gonna do it, and you can say you’ll do it tomorrow, but you probably won’t. Tonight? Love you.

Conrad: Thank you.

Carter: For what. Are you awake?

Conrad: Yes.

Carter: Are you gonna do it today?

Conrad: Yes.

Carter: Like in the day time?

Conrad: Should I?

Carter: Yeah, it’s less suspicious. You won’t think about it as much and you’ll get it over with instead of wait until the night.

Conrad: Yeah then I will. Like where? Like I could go in any enclosed area.

Carter: Go in your truck and drive in a parking lot somewhere, to a park or something. Do it like early. Do it now, like early.

Conrad: Didn’t we say this was suspicious?

Carter: No. I think night is more suspicious … Just do it. It wouldn’t be suspicious and it won’t take long.

Conrad: Okay. I’m taking Holly for a walk.

Carter: Okay.

Conrad: I don’t know why I’m like this.

Carter: Sometimes things happen and we never have the answers why.

Conrad: Like, why am I so hesitant lately. Like two weeks ago I was willing to try everything and now I’m worse, really bad, and I’m LOL not following through. It’s eating me inside.

Carter: You’re so hesitant because you keeping over thinking it and keep pushing it off. You just need to do it, Conrad. The more you push it off, the more it will eat at you. You’re ready and prepared … No more pushing it off. No more waiting.

Conrad: You’re right.

Carter: If you want it as bad as you say you do it’s time to do it today.

Conrad: Yup. No more waiting.

Carter: Okay. I’m serious. Like you can’t even wait ’till tonight. You have to do it when you get back from your walk.

Conrad: Thank you.

Carter: For what?

Conrad: Still being here.

Carter: I would never leave you. You’re the love of my life, my boyfriend. You are my heart. I’d never leave you.

Conrad: Aw.

Carter: I love you.

Conrad: Love you, too.

Carter: When will you be back from your walk?

Conrad: Like, five minutes.

Carter: Okay. So you gonna do it?

Conrad: I guess.

Carter: Well, I want you to be ready and sure. What does that mean?

Conrad: I don’t know. I’m freaking out again. I’m over thinking.

Carter: I thought you wanted to do this. This time is right and you’re ready. You just need to do it. You can’t keep living this way. You just need to do it like you did the last time and not think about it and just do it, babe. You can’t keep doing this every day.

Conrad: I do want to but I’m like freaking for my family I guess. I don’t know.

Carter: Conrad, I told you I’ll take care of them. Everyone will take care of them to make sure they won’t be alone and people will help them get through it. We talked about this and they will be okay and accept it. People who commit suicide don’t think this much. They just could do it.

Conrad: I know. I know. LOL. Thinking just drives me more crazy.

Carter: You just need to do it, Conrad, or I’m gonna get you help. You can’t keep doing this everyday.

Conrad: Okay. I’m gonna do it today.

Carter: You promise?

Conrad: I promise, babe. I have to now.

Carter: Like right now?

Conrad: Where do I go?

Carter: And you can’t break a promise. And just go in a quiet parking lot or something.

Conrad: Okay.

CARTER : Go somewhere you know you won’t get caught. You can find a place. I know you can. Are you doing it now?

Conrad: I’m ready.

Carter: Good because it’s time, babe. You know that. When you get back from the beach you’ve gotta go do it. You’re ready. You’re determined. It’s the best time to do it.

Conrad: Okay, I will.

Carter: Are you back?

Conrad: No more thinking.

Carter: Yes. No more thinking. You need to just do it. No more waiting.

Conrad: On way back. I know where to go now.

Carter: Where?

Conrad: A parking lot. There is going to be no cars there at 9:00. So that’s when I’ll be found.

Carter: Okay, perfect. When will you be home?

Conrad: Ten minutes. Ha ha, that’s perfect.

CARTER : Okay. And, well, yeah, I don’t know.

Conrad: Like, I don’t want to kill anyone else with me.

Carter and Conrad then discuss the method used for the suicide, however Metro have decided not to publish this.

Conrad: I’m home.

Carter: Okay.

Conrad: Ah.

Carter: What?

Conrad: I don’t know. I’m stressing.

Carter: You’re fine. It’s gonna be okay. You just gotta do it, babe. You can’t think about it.

Conrad: Okay. Okay. I got this.

Carter: Yes, you do. I believe in you. Did you delete the messages?

Conrad: Yes. But you’re going to keep messaging me … I’m bringing my sisters for ice cream.

Carter: So will you do it when you get back?

Conrad: Yup, I’ll go right there.

Carter: Okay.

Conrad: Love you.

Carter: I love you so much.

Conrad: (Smiley face).

Carter: 33.

Conrad: Ha ha. What are you doing?

Carter: Nothing really. Just resting.

Conrad: Okay. Ha, ha I’m procrastinating.

Carter: Yeah, ha ha, I know. Are you back?

Conrad: Yup.

Carter: So it’s time?

Conrad: Oh, it’s been time.

Carter: Are you gonna do it now?

Conrad: I just don’t know how to leave them, you know.

Carter: Say you’re gonna go the store or something.

Conrad: Like, I want them to know that I love them.

Carter: They know. That’s one thing they definitely know. You’re over thinking.

Conrad: I know I’m over thinking. I’ve been over thinking for a while now.

Carter: I know. You just have to do it like you said. Are you gonna do it now?

Conrad: I still haven’t left yet, ha ha.

Carter: Why?

Conrad: Leaving now.

Carter: Okay. You can do this.

Conrad: Okay. I’m almost there.


I'm not happy with the sentence she got. In order for manslaughter to qualify as voluntary there needs to be malice, which was certainly present here. Involuntary manslaughter is when you accidentally hit someone with a car. Not when you plot someone's death for weeks. She killed him because she wanted attention. She bragged to her friends in text messages that she could have stopped him, but didn't. Before he died, he got out of the car and called her. She called him a pussy and told him to get back in. So he did, and he's dead now.

This definitely deserves a "voluntary manslaughter" charge. I don't know if there are laws against emotional abuse and manipulation which would cover this, but there should be. It wasn't certain she would be found guilty at all because in Massachusetts there is no law against encouraging suicide, which I find weird. Some from the ACLU have complained this sets a bad precedent in regards to free speech. I don't agree. I believe in free speech, and I think someone should be free to say "you should kill yourself." However they should not be free to take advantage of a vulnerable person and plan their death. The court case focused on the moment when Conrad told her he was getting out of the car, and she failed to assist him. This is beyond a speech issue because she was telling him what to do.

I've seen arguments saying she didn't kill him because he killed himself. I don't think it's that simple. Jim Jones didn't directly kill the people who committed suicide under his command. Charles Manson didn't kill anyone. Yet they are responsible for horrible crimes.
  • 21

User avatar
Tesseracts
Big Brother
Big Brother
 
Posts: 9322
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:31 am
Show rep
Title: Social Media Expert

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:40 am

Munchausen's By Proxy isn't free speech, it's being desperate for attention.
  • 3

"Man is neither angel nor beast. The misfortune is that he who would act the angel acts the beast."- Blaise Pascal

"Life is a tale told by an idiot; sound and fury, signifying nothing".- Rachel Amber, LiS:BTS
User avatar
Deathclaw_Puncher
Knight Writer
Knight Writer
 
Posts: 11397
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:42 pm
Location: Fair Oaks, CA
Show rep
Title: 一番アンバープライスのだもの

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Kivutar » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:54 am

This is one of the times when I wish that people could still be sentenced to public floggings.

Of course, I know that's barbaric and wrong for any number of reasons, but holy hell do some people deserve it.
  • 12

"No one goes insane because there's a large octopus dragon man."
-lemons
User avatar
Kivutar
Champion
Champion
 
Posts: 1139
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:52 am
Location: Right behind you
Show rep
Title: Great Librarian

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby SandTea » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:20 am

transcript wrote:Did you delete the messages?


If that's not premeditated 'saving your own ass from prosecution because you were complicit in a death', I don't know how we can so regularly convict people of murder who were, like, getaway drivers but not the shooter. Her actions objectively and intentionally lead to his death.

Besides wanting attention she might have wanted to be a glee character? I know that source might not be great.

I also remember reading she was suspiciously asserting her control over everything memorial wise.
  • 10

"Draw me not without reason; sheath me not without honor."
User avatar
SandTea
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 995
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:01 pm
Show rep
Title: 3rdAeolus

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby DamianaRaven » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:50 am

Kivutar wrote:Of course, I know that's barbaric and wrong for any number of reasons, but holy hell do some people deserve it.


In a perfect world, people like us would be locked up and shot. But then, you'd need people like us to do the locking up and shooting.


Seriously though... fuck this evil cunt. In my eyes, she's a murderer who thinks she's outsmarted The System. Unfortunately, there are lots of people like her in this world... people who seek out depression and suicidal tendencies so that they can "kill" someone without taking any blame. Ironically, I'm every bit as disgusted (for almost exactly the same reason) with suicidal people who jump in front of vehicles or wave guns around in front of cops.

If one wants to dabble in death, I demand REAL COURAGE before I'll even start to think about respecting those decisions. If you absolutely must kill someone (including yourself) then grab a weapon and do it like a WARRIOR. Don't puss out and try to con someone else into doing your dirty work!
  • 2

Let us pray for Trump - Psalm 109:8
User avatar
DamianaRaven
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 5631
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:37 am
Location: Yippee-ki-yay, motherfuckers!
Show rep
Title: Crazy Cunt

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Taluun » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:19 am

Or just don't kill people. That sounds like a much better plan
  • 8

User avatar
Taluun
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Show rep

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Bromo » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:58 am

The woman should also be charged with domestic abuse too. There's no reason not to.
  • 7

"I spent a good 20 minutes searching for my glasses, when I realized I was seeing a bit too well.

Then I reached for my face and there were they." --Toy, 2016


The Pokémon master formerly known as Kevin Durant.
User avatar
Bromo
Time Waster
Time Waster
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:41 pm
Location: 'Murica
Show rep
Title: Token Homo

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Absentia » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:30 am

This is one of those touchy legal issues where words like "involuntary" and "malice" don't necessarily mean the same thing that they do in common language. "Involuntary" manslaughter includes criminally negligent homicide, which is the one thing that the defendant is most certainly guilty of: failure to act according to one's responsibility or duty, resulting in death. Even if her negligence was "voluntary" in the normal sense of the word, negligence is still legally involuntary.

Convicting on anything higher would be difficult for (at least) two reasons. One, as mentioned, is malice: having intent for someone else to kill themselves is arguably not the same thing as having intent to kill. The other problem is drawing the proverbial straight line between the defendant's actions and the death: the defense would argue that it was the victim who decided to kill himself of his own free will, and nothing the defendant did rose to the level of coercion that would negate his free will. You might well disagree, but it's a murky issue that could lead to the jury deciding to call it reasonable doubt and acquit.

So while I'm comfortable saying this woman is a terrible person who is morally responsible for a death, legally speaking I can't say I'm surprised or disappointed at the outcome. Sometimes the law isn't adequate to classify the crime.
  • 13

Last edited by Absentia on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Absentia
TCS Chomper
TCS Chomper
 
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:46 am
Location: Earth
Show rep

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby ghijkmnop » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:35 am

Taluun wrote:Or just don't kill people. That sounds like a much better plan


It is, until you find someone who just needs killin'.
  • 6

Baby, I'm on your side.
User avatar
ghijkmnop
Time Waster
Time Waster
 
Posts: 1793
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 8:22 am
Show rep
Title: Oldest member of TCS

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Tesseracts » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:38 am

I think the only honorable way to kill someone is a duel.
Yugi_cut_litil.gif
Yugi_cut_litil.gif (31.35 KiB) Viewed 712 times
  • 15

User avatar
Tesseracts
Big Brother
Big Brother
 
Posts: 9322
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:31 am
Show rep
Title: Social Media Expert

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby DamianaRaven » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:02 am

The first thing I thought when I came to this thread was I agree with Tess, which should tell anyone who knows either of us that you're 100% right.
  • 2

Let us pray for Trump - Psalm 109:8
User avatar
DamianaRaven
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 5631
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:37 am
Location: Yippee-ki-yay, motherfuckers!
Show rep
Title: Crazy Cunt

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Absentia » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:34 am

SandTea wrote:I don't know how we can so regularly convict people of murder who were, like, getaway drivers but not the shooter.


The short answer is that the driver is part of a criminal conspiracy and shares liability with his co-conspirators.

By contrast, this case has no criminal conspiracy because suicide isn't a crime in the US.
  • 9

User avatar
Absentia
TCS Chomper
TCS Chomper
 
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:46 am
Location: Earth
Show rep

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Anglerphobe » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:04 pm

Most killers aren't concerned with what is honourable anyway.
  • 0

"Tusser, they tell me, when thou wert alive,
Thou, teaching thrift, thyselfe couldst never thrive.
So, like the whetstone, many men are wont
To sharpen others, when themselves are blunt."
User avatar
Anglerphobe
Time Waster
Time Waster
 
Posts: 1844
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:03 pm
Location: Candy Apple Island
Show rep
Title: Ape, but not so big

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby SandTea » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:20 pm

In a related-ish case, A young woman was charged with second degree involuntary manslaughter for a coworkers suicide. Paraphrasing the defense- 'It's not illegal to be a jerk'. If you delve into this one it seems a lot more grey.
  • 3

"Draw me not without reason; sheath me not without honor."
User avatar
SandTea
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 995
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:01 pm
Show rep
Title: 3rdAeolus

Re: Woman who encouraged boyfriend's suicide found guilty

Postby Marcuse » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:17 pm

I believe in free speech, and I think someone should be free to say "you should kill yourself."


I don't think you should be free to say that, because it's encouraging violence against another person. The fact it's by their own hand is more or less irrelevant. If you asked a third party to kill someone, it probably wouldn't be protected speech, so I don't know why it's better or okay to ask that person to do the same to themself.

In this specific case, the girl is insane. She didn't just say "you should kill yourself", she planned it for him, encouraged him to get the equipment, and when he backed away from it at the last minute, she told him to "get back in the fucking car" and he did, and died. What she did is domestic abuse intended to kill another person, I feel like calling it manslaughter is too faint an offense when she literally told him to do it right in the moment, and her speech directly caused his eventual death.
  • 11

and the void is my master,
beneath me to writhe.
User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6173
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 5 guests

cron