Lena Dunham is a child molester

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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Tesseracts » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:49 am

Jack Road wrote:Perhaps foible is too relaxed. I'll change it "So far, Dunham has decided to write in a book that she committed sex crimes against her younger sister, while both of them were juveniles. If her sister is not pressing charges, why exactly do we care?"

I'm prepared to allow almost anything, as long as we settle on the discussion on why we care. This seems like a publicity stunt, perhaps because it was introduced as a stunt and then highly publicized?

This is not like Senator Whatsist accidentally confessing that he likes little kid butts on a radio show. Confessing something in a self-published biography is about as well rehearsed as BP confessing to an oil spill. There is absolutely zero chance that she did not see this response coming, and therefore I must assume she intended for this response to happen. At which point, the only position I can take is that I don't care and any judgement should come from her sister pressing charges and not involving me at all.

If Dunham was found out as a rapist, I could talk about her in relation to all sex crimes. When she tells the story herself in a book, she is either aiming for preventative damage control or aiming to become the center of a heated discussion. Neither of which interest me.

I care because people are defending her. It's a sign of how spineless our media can be and how afraid we are to offend popular feminists. I understand that it's likely this was done intentionally to stir up controversy, but if so, I feel like it's pointless to rebel by ignoring it. Also, I'm not so sure it was intentional. Her lawyers are suing over it, and Dunham herself is responding in such a stupid manner that it's hard to give her intelligence the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Jack Road » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:26 am

My argument is a bit less subtle than promoting active boycotting. Let me sum it up in this wicked smart diagram I made.

Image

All I am saying is that, until the affected party makes a move, it is pretty much just this cycle of the suspect party saying something versus the public forum commenting, and then the suspect party recanting or adapting. No real change is achieved, because no new input is being introduced.

To say it another way, let us say that Queen Latifah admits to molesting her pool boy with a broom. That is terrible, albeit really funny to picture. And we can judge all we want. But until the pool boy presses charges, or at least talks about it, we can't really discuss it.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby malosaires » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:13 am

Well, this is a not at all touchy and heated subject!

I find myself in agreement with Jack on this issue. What happened between her and her sister is between her and her sister, and they need to deal with that on their own. If she wants to press charges, she should. If not, then it's just something within their family.

I think the mention of the Polanski case is telling, as it's a case that at this point is entirely driven by the media and other people not tied to the case.

A few years back, the LA district attorney, a real right-wing, law-and-order-means-more-stoners-and-coloreds-in-jail type asshole, tried to revive the Polanski case just as he was launching his bid for attorney general. You know who asked him to do this? No one! It was just his way of grabbing at headlines.

People talk about how evil Polanski is, and how he should be captured and locked away for life, but that's all an outsider view. This is what Polanski's victim has to say about him now.

Straight up, what he did to me was wrong. But I wish he would return to America so the whole ordeal can be put to rest for both of us...

I'm sure if he could go back, he wouldn't do it again. He made a terrible mistake but he's paid for it...

I think he's sorry, I think he knows it was wrong. I don't think he's a danger to society. I don't think he needs to be locked up forever and no one has ever come out ever – besides me – and accused him of anything. It was 30 years ago now. It's an unpleasant memory ... (but) I can live with it.


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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Andropov4 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:28 am

I'm not actually certain Dunham actually broke any laws here. Acted creepy, sure, but there seems to be zero indication there was anything other than creepy, pseudo-sexual stuff going on. Sure, giving her younger sister stuff so she would sit in her lap or kiss her is weird, but I don't think it broke any laws. And the actual touching of her sister's vagina was when she was seven, long before such a thing would have had any sexual connotation for her. So while weird and unsettling, I'm not convinced she broke any laws.

Polanski totally did, though. He most definitely broke the law and did wrong. I'm much more comfortable with holding him accountable for his actions, though I wouldn't say he needs to be locked up forever and would be pretty comfortable with a shortened sentence for him, especially considering that the victim has apparently forgiven him and he's spent many years now in exile.

So no, I wouldn't call Dunham or Polanski evil people. Creepy, maybe, and at least one of them broke the law, but not evil. And it would appear that neither has continued these kinds of behaviours. So while I don't feel particularly compelled to stand up for them and demand everyone forget what they did, nor do I feel a need to excoriate them and destroy their livelihoods.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby malosaires » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:43 am

Quoted passage in spoiler
Spoiler: show
I shared a bed with my sister, Grace, until I was seventeen years old. She was afraid to sleep alone and would begin asking me around 5:00 P.M. every day whether she could sleep with me. I put on a big show of saying no, taking pleasure in watching her beg and sulk, but eventually I always relented.

Her sticky, muscly little body thrashed beside me every night as I read Anne Sexton, watched reruns of SNL, sometimes even as I slipped my hand into my underwear to figure some stuff out. Grace had the comforting, sleep-inducing properties of a hot-water bottle or a cat.

I always pretended to hate it. I complained to my parents: “No other teenagers have to share beds unless they’re REALLY POOR! Someone please get her to sleep alone! She’s ruining my life!” After all, she had her own bed that she chose not to sleep in. “Take it up with her,” they said, well aware that I, too, got something out of the arrangement.


Again, I still feel that this is a personal matter, but I do want to say something about this quote in particular. The way the masturbation thing is framed in previous posts and in that petition implies she was masturbating to her sister, when the quote seems to me more just that "she was there when I did these things." It doesn't seem abusive, as it's not something she is doing to her sister, and would most likely be doing without her sister present. To me, the most pertinent part of that quote is that last line of the paragraph:

Grace had the comforting, sleep-inducing properties of a hot-water bottle or a cat.


I hear stories about people's cats watching them have sex on the internet from time to time, and no one accuses those people of cat abuse or bestiality. (Yes, I'm aware there's a difference between a cat and a child, but the point stands that there doesn't really appear to be anything particularly abusive in this behavior.)

Also, I don't see what is sexual about the description of someone's body as sticky and muscly. Like, I could never imagine that being used to arouse someone, but that's just me.

Overall, none of the quotes seem particularly abusive. They really do seem to be the description of someone's somewhat misguided sexual awakening. Yeah, the exchanges are a little creepy, but I don't think the public has the right to crucify someone for the awkward ways they tried to explore their sexuality when it was first maturing. What great sin has this person committed that demands that she be removed from television?

I'm kind of on board with the feminists at this point. The way this has been presented seems very manipulative and based on a few articles right-wing driven, pumped by people not exactly friendly to feminist politics and culture. (I've never seen Girls, and have seen maybe one interview with Lena Dunham, so I'm not commenting on her politics or artistic merit.) The whole thing seems flimsy and pointless. What impact is Lena Dunham continuing to have a television show going to have on the level's of and culture around Child on child abuse? Why do people care if her sister, who probably read and approved everything said in the book about her long before it was published, doesn't?

EDIT: My tolerance of graphic content is higher than that of others, so the quote is now spoilered.
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Last edited by malosaires on Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby DamianaRaven » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:48 am

Hey, hey, HEY now, look... can we please put stuff like that under spoiler tags with trigger warnings... fuckin' please? Some of us do not want to read details that graphic, or at least should be given a chance to prepare for it.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:55 am

Andropov4 wrote:I'm not actually certain Dunham actually broke any laws here. Acted creepy, sure, but there seems to be zero indication there was anything other than creepy, pseudo-sexual stuff going on. Sure, giving her younger sister stuff so she would sit in her lap or kiss her is weird, but I don't think it broke any laws. And the actual touching of her sister's vagina was when she was seven, long before such a thing would have had any sexual connotation for her. So while weird and unsettling, I'm not convinced she broke any laws.

The text seemed to indicate that sexual touching continued until she was in her teen years, which would be very much illegal.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Andropov4 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:13 am

I don't see where in the text it says that sexual touching (aside from perhaps the kisses she paid for, and which don't necessarily have to be considered sexual) continued into her adolescence.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:45 am

She said she shared a bed with her sister until she was 17, and then described what they would do in bed. It's possible that only continued for part of that time, but if so, there is nothing to suggest it, and the fact that she says she dishonestly made a fuss about her sister being in her bed indicates that it was continuing through that time.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Andropov4 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:35 am

Right, but in that section, she doesn't actually mention touching her sister. She says she touched herself, and I'm not sold that that is/was abusive.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Aquila89 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:44 am

malosaires wrote:What happened between her and her sister is between her and her sister, and they need to deal with that on their own. If she wants to press charges, she should. If not, then it's just something within their family.


That's all fine, I just don't know why does she have to write about it.

Anyhow, it seems that her sister supports her; so there's that.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Marcuse » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:19 am

malosaires wrote:What happened between her and her sister is between her and her sister, and they need to deal with that on their own. If she wants to press charges, she should. If not, then it's just something within their family.


I've got to say, I find that approach questionable. As far as I'm aware, we don't wait until a complaint has been made if the law has been broken. It's also a matter where the sister wouldn't have been in a position at the time to provide valid consent, and this would be a problem whether or not the sister supports her or not. Given that the majority of abuse happens within families, saying that until someone complains it's just an issue within the family seems problematic to me.

Andropov4 wrote:I'm not actually certain Dunham actually broke any laws here. Acted creepy, sure, but there seems to be zero indication there was anything other than creepy, pseudo-sexual stuff going on. Sure, giving her younger sister stuff so she would sit in her lap or kiss her is weird, but I don't think it broke any laws. And the actual touching of her sister's vagina was when she was seven, long before such a thing would have had any sexual connotation for her. So while weird and unsettling, I'm not convinced she broke any laws.


The problem I think we're having here is that this is a book written to be both controversial and also extremely carefully worded to avoid anything that might provoke an investigation. I certainly don't think it's normal to pay one's sibling to kiss you, or to refer to them as "sexual property" and it does seem to lean towards abuse, especially when she herself says she used the method of "sexual predators" on her sister. I think this deliberately toes that line, in a way I find distasteful.

I also find it distasteful that she's being defended in so many circles as though this is just "what kids do". I get that kids sometimes do things that are a bit odd because they are entirely ignorant of things like that. I'm less on board with things that appear to outline a strange sexual relationship between sisters, where the older is literally referring to the younger as property. That's not something I see in normal children's play, and I find that somewhat disturbing.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby iMURDAu » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:06 pm

What kind of person sees another as sexual property? Or plays with themselves in a sexual manner with a family member, a blood relative, laying next to them? Then wants to capitalize on it to sell a book.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Edgar Cabrera » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:54 pm

I'm hesitant of jumping in threads dealing with risky subjects, but this case coupled with 52xMax's comment reminded me of a Kristi Harrison article. In it, she basically said that she once remembered her memories as a bully and she decided to tweet about them, tweets which in turn she posted in the article, all the while explaining how she grew out of that asshole-ishness to be a good person.

The comments' reaction were, to quote one comment:

Kefka wrote:I haven't seen a comment section turn against someone so quickly since Cheese told people that puns aren't that funny.

(Of course, I didn't see Kristi complaining on Twitter about what a bunch of blowhards the commentors are and how she's too above it all to bother to read them, but that's another story for another day)

It didn't get headlines, of course, but most of the comments were more or less about how it seemed too shallow that a few half-hearted apologies on a social network put her guilty conscious to rest and were enough to get back all the shitty things she did to poor children, and apparently it didn't help that her #1 entry was just her asking her friends (you know, cool people like ATB, people like Wong) if she was nice and telling her how sweet she was. I think that at this point you can see already certain parallels with Dunham's situation. As 52xMax said, I don't know whether on any of these cases it's people overreacting to those situations. Maybe Kristi was regretful and decided to come clean and thought that this was the best way of doing it.

Finally, I also agree with what 52xMax said about the "I don't know, you don't know" stance. If it is considered that there must be a legal punishment, I hope for the authorities to get involved as they are needed, but I will refrain to pass moral judgements until there's a clear picture of it.
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Re: Lena Dunham is a child molester

Postby Kate » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:27 pm

I don't think there's anything legally wrong here, she was a kid when those things happened. Her parents probably should've done more, but, it's very hard (based on the information we have) to say either way what happened when.

I do kind of object to the idea that "If a victim is okay with it, it's a witchhunt to go after them anyway." A lot of victims end up forgiving their attackers, or don't want trouble, or some other thing that would keep them from pressing charges. Can you imagine going to Christmas dinner and having everyone glare at you because your sister is in jail because of you?

It's not our place to be warriors out to defend her sister who doesn't feel wronged by these things that happened when they were both kids, but I also don't agree with the idea that any victim saying "it was fine" means something should be dropped (so yeah, Roman Polanski is not off the hook in my view), though I do understand that it's something that we can't really know without that input from the alleged victim. And I'm bang on board with saying this would probably be a different discussion if Lena Dunham was instead Leonard Dunham. If a babysitter or family friend of the same age had done this stuff, there would probably be less defense of it. Especially if it was a male babysitter or family friend. If the gender of the person involved or the familial relationship would change the scenario for you, I think it's worth some examination.
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