[Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Pendragon: Tales of Chivalry and Sorcery is the place to go if you want to play Pendragon. Cpt._Funkotron will be your GM, with assistance from CarrieVS.

[Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:04 am

Here for out of character questions, discussions, comments, and snide remarks regarding the Pendragon game.

Important Links:

Character Sheets - viewtopic.php?f=42&t=9500&p=236469#p236469

Current Adventure Thread - 485 Water and Blood /// viewtopic.php?f=42&t=10232

Interest/Signup Thread - viewtopic.php?f=42&t=9471


-Past Adventure Threads-
485 Bete Noire /// viewtopic.php?f=42&t=9608
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby KleinerKiller » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:20 am

In the interest of getting my character's year of birth, when does the first campaign take place?

Also, what is the "Siege" combat skill you list in the character sheets thread? It's not mentioned anywhere in the core book / character sheet I'm working off.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:35 am

The game starts in 485 AD, it's assumed that your character has just recently reached the age they are recorded as.

The Siege skill governs a character's ability to lead and conduct siege warfare effectively, as opposed to the Battle skill, which governs skirmishes and pitched engagements. There aren't likely to be many (if any at all) situations where a player knight is leading or defending a siege, but it's there if you want it.

The reason that it is present in this character sheet and not the example in the book is that I have both the 5.0 edition and the 5.1 edition, and apparently I linked everyone the 5.1 edition while using the 5.0 edition to build the character sheet by mistake. Apparently there were some concern that players were mistakenly investing points into a skill they never got to use, so the game designers took it off the list in the update. It's still a skill you can have, you can strictly speaking have a skill for anything. But it's no longer a suggested one.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:11 pm

Here are a set of very thorough spreadsheets with appropriate cymric names and their meanings. You don't have to use these, but they're a good resource.

Female names: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Male names: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Latin names are also acceptable, as are old-fashioned english and french names. Be careful with the english names however, very blatantly anglo-saxon sounding names may be a probelm, ie Alfred, Edmund, Ethelred, Aelfric, Osric. The Saxons are the bad guys. You can't go wrong with Robert, William, John, Henry, Charles, James or Richard. As a rule of thumb for English names, if it was the name of an English king after 1066, it's probably fine. Edward is in the grey area
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:14 pm

An addendum, if the name belongs to a character you recognize from Arthurian myth I'd suggest you refrain from using it, because it's likely that character will show up at some point. Cadogan is probably fine, but Gawaine or Galahad is likely to cause some confusion.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:17 pm

There is also a family history generator, from that part of the book probably no one bothered to read. It details the exploits of your ancestors and gives a little history on the preceding century: http://pendragon.uplink.fi/?tab=fathers ... rsion&nr=1

If you'd like to use it, just copy your result and send it to me, I'll add it to the notes of your character sheet. If you don't feel like naming your ancestor's I'll do it for you, and if you're playing a matriarchal female knight, exchange 'father' for mother where appropriate.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:55 am

Impending Lore Dump

Alright so the political situation of Logres as described in the core rule book is vaguely still true, but has received massive reworking in later supplementals that have followed it. To save everyone the time of going through like three different and somewhat contradictory books and reading them cover to cover, I'll go through crash course run-down here.

A lot of this information is really periferal to the story and you can get along fine without it, but it's here for posterity and so that I can point to it if need be.

I Shot the Sheriff, but I did not shoot the Deputy

The King is the originator of all land, in marxist terms, he controls the ultimate means of production. He owns the rocks, the trees, the fields, the birds, the deer, the swans, the rivers, the valleys, "everything the light touches" in theory belongs to him, and even quite a lot that the light doesn't touch. He divides his realm into counties, or shires. Over each Shire presides a Shire Reeve, or Sheriff. He represents the king's interests, collects the king's taxes, carries out the king's laws, and keeps the kings peace. Logres is divided into 24 shires.

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Now, as the king sees it, in a perfect world that would be the end of the story, but it isn't. In come the Barons to make a mess of everything.

Much like you as knights receive your manorial estates in exchange for your knightly services, so a baron is granted lands in exchange for raising and maintaining a ready contingent of knights, should the king have need of them. When enfoeffment is entered into, the requisite knights in the agreement are usually dealt with in terms of eschiiles, squadrons of 10. Practically speaking, if a baron showed up to battle with at least 5 knights to the eschille, there wouldn't ordinarily be a fuss. Any vassal who (agrees to) provides less than an eschille does not hold their land per baroniam, but as a knight, per militem.

There are are around 60 or so warlords who hold lands in vassalage from Uther in 485, and easily a few hundred direct vassal knights and minor estate holders. An accurate political map of these baron's holdings isn't really possible unless I made a week out of it, because Barons don't tend to hold all of their land in one single, contiguous, area. Oh, no siree. One castle in the east, two in the west. Ten manors in Berroc, half a manor and a sickly cow in Ascalon. Fishing rights in Glevum, Hunting rights in Lonazep, and toll rights over a half-rotten bridge in Silchester.

The complexity of this arrangement is thus that it took the game designers a 200 page supplemental (called Book of the Warlord) to adequately outline it all and give a rough list of who owns what.

Interspered between these fiefdoms, 25% of the land remains in the king's direct control, his royal demesne. There are no completely royal counties, there are no completely enfoeffed counties. It is all a scrambled mess of a kingdom, the deformed lovechild of a Rorschach test and a Jackson Pollack painting.

All barons are customarily of equal rank, peers under the same king, but there are also special baronial ranks held by the powerful few. In later times, there would be dozens of peerages and special conditions and honors for each, but at the moment, it boils down to the Earls and the Dukes.

My Name is Earl

An Earl in this setting is essentially, to keep things simple, a baron with lands in a given county, who along with their grant of land in that given county, is given ceremonial association with and permanent, inheritable, shirevalty (office of Sheriff) over that same county. This is a very rare honor, and it is usually only held by those barons who, though legally speaking hold the king's land, are the scions of family lines that have ruled in their regions since time immemorial. There are seven Earls: Sir Roderick of Salisbury (your liegelord), Sir Ulfius of Silchester (and Duke of Silchester), Sir Lucius of Caerwent (and Duke of Caercolun), Sir Corneus of Linden (and Duke of Lindsey), Sir Edairis of Rydychan (only recently elevated to the Earldom by the last king, Aurelius Ambrosius), Sir Sulien of Bedegraine (the cousin of the now deceased and defunct King of Bedegraine, conquered a decade ago) and King Cadwy of Summerland (a man in a unique position, allowed to retain his Kingly titles after having sworn fealty to Uther).

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An earl does not own all of the land in a county, no one does. The Earl of Rydychan for example holds barely a fifth of Rydychan county himself, whereas Sir Roderick is notable for holding aroubnd 75% of the county of Salisbury ("wow!").

Think of the earl as a man, who by ancestral right, stands as an extension of the king's outstretched hand to certain shire, and the hand of that shire outstretched to the king at the same time.

Then you have the Dukes, an extension of the King's mailled fist wherever the king has need of one (almost always those troublesome border counties).

Pass the Duchy on the Left-Hand Side

In this setting, a duke is not more wealthy or prestigious than an earl, in fact in many cases it is the reverse. The word comes from the latin 'dux', or military leader. A duke, again to keep things simple, is a baron who is granted military command over the other barons in a given region (dukedom) for the purpose of regional defense. The title is NOT inheritable, and can be revoked or dissolved at any time the king pleases. Along with the Dukedom, the king typically gives temporary ownership of the royal lands inside that area for the duration of the duke's life, to be returned to the crown upon his death.

The duke has no extraordinary powers in his dukedom unless specifically granted to him. All barons owe military service to the king, it is the duke's charge to direct that service at his own initiative in the king's name.

There are five Dukes in 485:

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1. Sir Gorlois, Duke of Cornwall, and Sheriff of Tintagel. Known for having a remarkably beautiful wife, Igraine. He wards the west country from Irish raiders, and the pernicious breton King, Idres, who rules the south half of Cornwall and the north half of Brittany.
2. Sir Corneus, Duke of Lindsey, and Earl of Linden (modern lincolnshire). He wards the north from the wild picts.
3. Sir Eliol, Duke of Glevum. An old man, a revered warrior and commander of men. He wards the Severn valley from Estregales, a warlike Irish kingdom in the south of Cambira.
4. Sir Lucius, Duke of Caercolun, and Earl of Caerwent. He wards the eastern shore from the Angle and Saxon naval expeditions. Given that this region is now known as "east anglia", I'll leave you to be the judge of his effectiveness.
5. Sir Ulfius, Duke of Silchester, and Earl of Silchester. King Uther's friend and right-hand man, showered in royal lands and liberties and entrusted with many crucial military operations. His niece, Lady Ellen, is Earl Roderick of Salisbury's wife. Ulfius's position is critical: he wards the south from Sussex and Kent, the wicked saxon kingdoms established under the reign of Vortigern.

As you can see, there are 3 earls of 7 who are also dukes, and 2 dukes of 5 who are not earls in their own right. The relationship between the two offices is not linear.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby sunglasses » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:26 pm

Hey, just wanted to let you all know I'm still in this I've just been rather busy.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:59 pm

sunglasses wrote:Hey, just wanted to let you all know I'm still in this I've just been rather busy.


There's no rush, we're glad to have you.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby CarrieVS » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:42 am

Cpt._Funkotron wrote:Tathel, lance skill of 15, rolled a 20.

That right there is what we call a fumble folks.


Actually, that's what I call a paradigm shift. I deduce that in this game you roll under your stat to succeed? I've heard of that mechanic before (and actually used it, for one specific stat that my DM introduced to our D&D game for the current campaign) and I guess it reduces the amount of arithmetic you have to do on the fly.

But still, natural 20 is a disastrous failure... weird.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:05 pm

CarrieVS wrote:
Cpt._Funkotron wrote:Tathel, lance skill of 15, rolled a 20.

That right there is what we call a fumble folks.


Actually, that's what I call a paradigm shift. I deduce that in this game you roll under your stat to succeed? I've heard of that mechanic before (and actually used it, for one specific stat that my DM introduced to our D&D game for the current campaign) and I guess it reduces the amount of arithmetic you have to do on the fly.

But still, natural 20 is a disastrous failure... weird.


Yep. You get a critical success if you roll exactly your skill level, for example if Tathel had rolled a 15.

At skill of twenty you stop being able to fumble, unless a circumstantial modifier has lowered your skill to below twenty again. At 21 you also crit on a 19, at 22 you crit on 18,19,20, and so on.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:24 am

sunglasses wrote:This is why spears are better then lances, Bleddyn thinks.


Fun fact, in this phase of the game, spears and lances describe the exact same weapon. The difference skills just govern different uses: lance is for using it on horseback, spear is for using it on foot.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby sunglasses » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:05 am

Have you played the Banner Saga? It sums up my feeling on spears.

Does not sum up my feelings on horses...
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:04 am

Yeah, spears in Banner Saga are MVP.

Mini-Announcement

I'm waiting to hear back from DashaBlade as to whether or not he still wants to play. At the latest, Assuming we have no new volunteers, the first Adventure thread (485) will go up on Friday.

Alright, that out of the way, allow me to vomit some more knowledge at you at you.

Lore Dump 2: Electric Boogaloo

Army Organization

As I'm preparing for the first adventure, I am reminded that there is a battle for the players in the first year, so I figured there was no time like the present to brush everyone up on how armies work in the Pendragon setting.

Part of the following has been taken other supplemental books, and part of it has been house-ruled in by yours truly. As before, much of this is likely to be outside of your general concern as a player, but it's here if you need it.

Squires and Attendants

The largest divergence here from the supplemental books I'm drawing from, is that I'm trying out is 2 squires (or attendant commoners) per knight instead of 1, as a general rule, not an exception. Further down, when I make reference to "Valets" and "Armigers", know that I am just referring to squires (or attendant commoners) doing different jobs.

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"Do as I say" phase: A Valet is usually young, starting at age 14, and usually transitions into the job of Armiger between the age of 18-21, though this transition is not automatic and may never come to pass at all. There are exceptions to this, in fact it's not impossible to retain this job well into one's middle age, not all squires become knights after all. A valet (it's a hard 'T', pronounced as they do on downton abbey, val-it) does most of the menial work that a knight requires: cooking meals on campaign, polishing armor, cleaning weapons, saddling and tending to horses, helping the knight don his armor, etc. While not on campaign, and while not occupied with chores, if the Valet is also a Squire he will spend most of his time learning to ride and fight from horseback in a relatively safe environment. In battle, the valet usually waits back in camp, keeping an eye on the (several) horses and baggage, waiting to either attend their master as they return victoriously, or prepare to beat a hasty retreat should things go south.

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"Do as I do" phase: An Armiger usually begins as a relatively young adult, at least 18 years old. As he name might suggest, he functions in part as an arms-bearer, in addition to helping the valet out with any chores that need doing. He follows the knight into battle on a rouncy, wearing a padded arming coat and hardened leather over-top, with an iron helm, a shield, his own sword, and any of the knight's weapons that he isn't using at that particular moment, most importantly spare lances. Most of the fighting is done by the knights (who ride in front) but when the unit is tearing into a block of infrantry and hacking indiscriminately, or the unit becomes flanked, or the line falters, the Armiger does earn his keep fighting like everyone else. It's also the armiger's job to pull the knight from the field if he is incapacitated, though with ransom-taking being so popular, the knight being rescued is not a guaranteed outcome. You lot start the campaign as this kind of squire.

An Ordinary Knight will typically have 1 attendant of each kind. Vassal knights (you lot) can expect at least 1 of their attendants to be an actual squire training for knighthood, perhaps even both. A HouseHold Knight, or Knight Bachelor, will usually be attended by low-born servants; being given charge of another knight's son is a great honor for a household knight, whereas it is expected of a landed knight.

A Rich knight may have even more attendants, though usually no more than 2 armigers.

An exceptionally poor (or stingy, or distrusted) knight will usually only have a valet with him, carrying what few of his own weapons he has with him out of necessity.

The Lance

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A Lance (the capital L is important), in military terms, does not describe a stick with a piece of metal on the end. A Lance is the smallest unit by which feudal armies are assembled and Organized; in simplest terms, a Lance is comprised of 1 knight and those he brings with him to battle. This will invariably include the knight's valet, and in most cases an armiger, as well as any small number of accompanying non-knightly soldiers. The use of the term Lance is informal and colloquial, and yet is the word that is most often used. You can think of a WWI general ordering "get me a few rifles up on that hill" impersonally referring to soldiers, in the middle ages they used 'lance' much in the same way.

The composition of a Lance in the Kingdom of Logres varies wildly from baron to baron, and to some degree from knight to knight. The requirements that Uther places on his vassals are intentionally vague; record keeping and land surveying, pardon my french, suck donkey balls in this period. Evaluation of feudal grants is practiced, but it is an extremely inexact discipline. The implicit understanding is that a vassal will bring as large a force as he is reasonably able, but at the same time, a liegelord calling bullshit on what looks like a poor effort is rarely feasible. As with most things among nobles, it is essentially run off of the honor system.

In Logres, the smallest possible Lance, the basic requirement for one's liegelord to be unable to bitch and moan, the C- grade effort if you will, is 4 people, 3 of which are fighting men: 1 knight + 2 spearmen, +1 valet waiting with the baggage.

However, this is the minimum. Most knights also have an armiger and can afford a few more spearmen, rich knights can usually afford even more squires and spearmen, and usually bring along a few mounted mercenaries (called Sargeants here) as well.

The ideal Lance, which as luck would have it (because I'm God in this game after all) is also what Earl Roderick requires from his knights, has 7 people, 6 of which are fighters (or 5, or 5.5 depending on how you count the armiger), 1 knight + 1 Armiger + 4 Spearmen + 1 Valet.

Because of these disparities, when a Lord calls his vassal to bring a Lance to battle, anywhere between 3-12 fighting men could be what shows up. The only real common thread between all lances is that they all contain a knight. Since Knight is the name of the game, the BAMF movers and shakers of war (at least as the legends describe them), this usually isn't too much of an issue.

In the years to come, wars will go farther abroad than lazy barons are accustomed, and lances of mercenaries will rule the field, hired and dismissed on an individual basis. Large bands of mercenaries are referred to as "Free Companies", and an individual mounted and well-armored mercenary with his own valet will be known as a "free lances", the origin of the word freelancer.

The Eschille

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Now, the battlefield isn't just a bunch of roaming knights getting into personal scraps with their haggard and breathless foot soldiers jogging behind them, much like any kind of soldier the knight (and by extension the Lance) is grouped into a squadron called an Eschille. The name is derived from an older form of the french word Echelle, which means ladder. This might seem a little nonsensical at first, but it sort of makes sense when you think of a Lance being a literal lance, and think of the lances coming together parallel to form the rungs of a ladder.

An Eschille is comprised of anywhere between 5 and 15 Lances, with 10 being ordinary.

You may notice that an ordinary eschille comprised of ordinary lances comes out to 60 fighting men, the same of a typical roman century. This isn't an accident.

Although the knight supplies the other men of his Lance, HE DOES NOT COMMAND THEM IN BATTLE IF HE IS NOT THE LEADER OF THE ESCHILLE. Sorry for shouting, but in this massive wall of text, if there's one thing that needs to stick out it's that. The knights and assorted cavalry are all lined up, with the best armored and the best horsed in front rank, and the lesser armed men in the second rank. Behind the cavalry, the spearmen are formed up into a single formation, commanded usually by 1 officer in 20. How these two formations work in conjunction during battle is not really well known to historians, and is not delt with in any capacity in the rule books so I'm unfortunately in the dark ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

A Knight who suplies his own Eschille, is a Banneret. Sir Elad is one of these knights, he supplies 7 lances including his own to the earl, and likewise leads this unit in battle under his own banner, hence the term.

The commander of an eschille who is not a banneret is usually just called "commander", but in some contexts the title 'decurion' may be used, a holdover from the roman days.

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The knights of an eschille train together, maneuver together and fight together, as a cohesive unit under the same leader. The knights of an eschille, and even the more senior footmen, will know and recognize their peers on sight. Several of the knigts were probably squired together. Think of an Eschille in terms of a modern Platoon if it helps. When you are knighted, spoiler alert I suppose, you will all be incorporated into one of Roderick's eschilles.

The Eschille is the unit by which a baron's feudal contract is defined. Earl Roderick is not legally bound to supply 150 knights and 600 spearmen to King Uther, he is legally required to field 15 eschilles.

Just as with the Lance, because of the variability in an Eschille's size, the king really might be playing 'luck of the draw' when he summons one. This is compacted with the variability of the Lance, to the RIDICULOUS point where an eschille could comprise anywhere between 15 (5 lances of 3) and 120 (15 lances of 12) fighting men, but in most cases will number around 60 total.

No one who is known to be capable of supplying a full eschille of 60, or even more, makes a point of sending just 15 men unless he has an itching to climb right to the top on Uther's shit list.

Companies, Archers, Battalions, And So Forth

All of the eschilles supplied by a Baron are grouped together into a company, and lead by that Baron, or a Captain, who is also individually the leader of one of the company's eschilles.

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It's at the company level that Archers are usually hired. Archers are usually not brought along in a lance, nor are they components of an eschille. It is the Lord who, when going to war, hires a contingent of archers, usually either common farmers inbetween planting and harvest, paid an honest wage for a little seasonal work, or in many cases these men could be career soldiers, selling their bow-arms wherever they can be bought. In any case, archers tend to all be massed into one long block at the company level, blotting out the sun in one general area rather than picking out individual targets.

An army's companies are divided into rough battallions, of which there are usually 3: The vanguard, the center, and the rearguard. As the names would suggest, when traveling the van is in the front, and the rear is in back, but on the battlefield, they simply file out into the three sections right left and center. The commander of a battalion is is commissioned on a battle-by-battle basis, as a battallions is just a third of a given army rather than a fixed unit. Regardless of any ability, the battallion commanders are usually the three most senior nobles present, regardless of training or experience. A 20 year old earl takes precedence of command over a grizzled 50 year old baron.

So, in summary, the chain of command goes thus: Army > Battalion > Company > Eschille > Lance (you are here).

It's 2AM right now and that's all I can think to write. Ciao.
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Re: [Game-Adjacent] Pendragon OOC Thread

Postby CarrieVS » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:23 am

Cpt._Funkotron wrote:new volunteers


Dammit, I shouldn't; as I mentioned in the other thread I'm what you might call over-committed on RPGs. But I want to, if it's not too late and won't disrupt your planning.

I've even got a character concept already (I almost decided to sign up last week). If you send me the stuff about how to create a character today, I'll have him ready in time to take a tilt at the quintain before Friday.
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