4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Tesseracts » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:23 pm

That's what happens when you see things from a black and white perspective. You open terrible precedents.

So is this an accusation? Am I the black and white one here? I can't tell.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Paradox » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:26 pm

Tesseracts wrote:There are ambiguities where drunkenness is concerned. However, we can all agree someone who is unconscious, for any reason, is not capable of consent. Right? Whether they chose to get drunk, or roofied, or were intoxicated against their will, or just fell asleep, or whatever... Once they are no longer conscious, they aren't consenting, right?

Yes.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Tesseracts » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:27 pm

Lind, I brought up the fact that drunk sex is a crime not as evidence that it's wrong, but to refute your position that it isn't a crime. It's a matter of fact not opinion.

Hardly. If you roofie someone, you're conning them right from the start, which is illegal in and of itself. They didn't consent to the drug, by definition of the term "roofie", so it follows that anything that occurs afterwards to directly due to something which they did not give consent to. If they took the drug of their own volition, on the other hand, that changes matters entirely.

So if someone voluntarily takes a drug which knocks them unconscious it's not rape if someone has sex with them? My understanding of consent is it requires the ability to think and communicate, and loss of thinking ability is withdrawal of consent.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Paradox » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:30 pm

Tesseracts wrote:
That's what happens when you see things from a black and white perspective. You open terrible precedents.

So is this an accusation? Am I the black and white one here? I can't tell.

There's no need to get so defensive. I just wanted to put another perspective on the table.

That perspective happens to clash with some of your views, yes. But still. I've had sex with drunken guys before and I don't think you've been calling me a rapist.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Lindvaettr » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:33 pm

Tesseracts wrote:
Lindvaettr wrote:Hardly. If you roofie someone, you're conning them right from the start, which is illegal in and of itself. They didn't consent to the drug, by definition of the term "roofie", so it follows that anything that occurs afterwards to directly due to something which they did not give consent to. If they took the drug of their own volition, on the other hand, that changes matters entirely.

So if someone voluntarily takes a drug which knocks them unconscious it's not rape if someone has sex with them? My understanding of consent is it requires the ability to think and communicate, and loss of thinking ability is withdrawal of consent.


A roofie doesn't inherently knock someone unconscious. It lowers their inhibitions. If someone knowingly and willingly takes a drug that lowers their inhibitions, and then consents to something because of their lowered ambitions, then things happened pretty much exactly as stated on the label.

That applies to alcohol as well, to my mind. I agree with you when it's in regards to someone passed out, or asleep, or so drunk they can't even speak, but at some point along the line, the "victim" made the decision to indulge in a drug that lowers their inhibitions, and then made a decision while their inhibitions were lowered. It seems to me as though personal responsibility should have some weight, somewhere along the line. That may sound harsher than I intend it to, but making a shitty decision after you take a drug known for causing people to make shitty decisions seems like it wouldn't really end in a debate in many other circumstances than this.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Matthew Notch » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:35 pm

Incidentally, someone's fetish is surely getting roofied, in which case as long as consent was given before the person gets the roofie, it's not rape, correct?
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Tesseracts » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:38 pm

Matthew Notch wrote:Incidentally, someone's fetish is surely getting roofied, in which case as long as consent was given before the person gets the roofie, it's not rape, correct?

If someone established consent while sober, I believe this counts, but many places wouldn't consider this consent.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Twistappel » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:46 pm

Tesseracts wrote:There are ambiguities where drunkenness is concerned. However, we can all agree someone who is unconscious, for any reason, is not capable of consent. Right? Whether they chose to get drunk, or roofied, or were intoxicated against their will, or just fell asleep, or whatever... Once they are no longer conscious, they aren't consenting, right?

I think we can all agree with that.

I don't know, maybe it might be possible to knowingly give your consent to somebody having sex with you while you are unconscious, before the drug affects you, but I'm not aware of a case like that ever being tried.

Incidentally, I gather this was a response to Toy's statement, but my earlier statement about a person taking having their drink spiked was intended to relate more to a person who becomes intoxicated but has not been rendered unconscious or otherwise incapacitated. I'm not sure (and it would probably take me some time to go find out), but I think you may still be able to make out a rape charge if you deliberately drug a person with the intent of impairing their judgement so that they will agree to have sex with you, at least in some jurisdictions.

From an ethical point of view, while getting somebody drunk so they will have sex with you is still a shitty thing to do, I think a person who drugs you against your will is infinity more of a shitheel, because they are taking away your ability to decide from the outset.

Just to clarify.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Crimson847 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:50 pm

Tesseracts wrote:I'll attempt to paraphrase this story with reversed genders.

"I felt unwanted, but an older hot girl would laugh at a couple of my jokes. One day at 8 AM she called and told me to come over. I went to her room and found she had been drinking all night. She threw me in bed and we had sex, although she wasn't physically aroused and kept falling asleep as she went down on me. I pushed her off and left and she never called me again."


If the older hot girl was bigger and stronger than him, the fact that she initiated the act in such an aggressive manner actually would make me think very differently about such a case. It seems like the fact that the drunk guy threw Schumer onto the bed and jumped on her is being treated as a minor detail of little consequence, which is weird to me. Yes, this is the kind of thing couples do in bed all the time, but coming from "some guy who laughed at a couple of my jokes once" I could see it having a very different effect.

That said, I didn't read the book, so for all I know he only did that because she stripped naked and said "c'mere big boy". Out of context, though, calling the person who had force used against them a rapist comes off really strange.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Paradox » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:53 pm

I wonder where BDSM falls on that.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Tesseracts » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:57 pm

Crimson847 wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:I'll attempt to paraphrase this story with reversed genders.

"I felt unwanted, but an older hot girl would laugh at a couple of my jokes. One day at 8 AM she called and told me to come over. I went to her room and found she had been drinking all night. She threw me in bed and we had sex, although she wasn't physically aroused and kept falling asleep as she went down on me. I pushed her off and left and she never called me again."


If the older hot girl was bigger and stronger than him, the fact that she initiated the act in such an aggressive manner actually would make me think very differently about such a case. It seems like the fact that the drunk guy threw Schumer onto the bed and jumped on her is being treated as a minor detail of little consequence, which is weird to me. Yes, this is the kind of thing couples do in bed all the time, but coming from "some guy who laughed at a couple of my jokes once" I could see it having a very different effect.

That said, I didn't read the book, so for all I know he only did that because she stripped naked and said "c'mere big boy". Out of context, though, calling the person who had force used against them a rapist comes off really strange.

I don't see how it matters who is the top. Any sexual act without consent is rape. This is the logic which leads people to conclude women can't rape, because only penetration is rape. It doesn't matter if she played the passive role in sex, she made a decision she didn't have to make.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Crimson847 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:36 am

Tesseracts wrote:I don't see how it matters who is the top. Any sexual act without consent is rape. This is the logic which leads people to conclude women can't rape, because only penetration is rape. It doesn't matter if she played the passive role in sex, she made a decision she didn't have to make.


Women can rape just as well as men can if they're in a situation where they have power over their target and a desire to abuse that power. What is unclear to me is who had more power in this situation. The man was drunk, yes, and he was also bigger than her, and --most importantly-- he was acting in an aggressive manner. I can easily see the described behavior giving someone on the receiving end the impression that telling him "no" would end badly, or simply rattling them to the point where it's difficult to think straight at all for a few crucial minutes.

If she'd jumped on him or pulled him on top of her or something like that, I would be happy to call that rape. Whether the aggressor is the penetrator or the penetratee, or on top or on the bottom is not the point. The point is, rape is an aggressive act, and I'm not comfortable putting passivity in the face of someone else's aggression in that category.

Toy wrote:I wonder where BDSM falls on that.


BDSM emphasizes trust. It's discussed beforehand at some point, safe words are agreed on...all precisely to avoid this sort of problem.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Piter Lauchy » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:09 am

I think this whole thing is something that can't be defined in general terms. I mean, the law somehow has to try, but it can't possibly be done. There are simply too much variables to consider because people are too different. This is one of those things that always come down to the individual case.
Let's say I had sex with a woman that had five beers but appears completely sober and one that just went through a messy break-up and is emotionally vulnerable.
Going with Tess's definition*, I'd be raping the former but not the latter. I would consider neither rape, but I'd sure as hell would feel a lot more scumbaggy about the latter.
(I chose myself as the guy in these scenarios because that makes it easier for me to write them. Realistically, I wouldn't have sex with either of them because in the former case I'd be scared as shit that she'd regret it later and accuse me of rape and the latter case because of the aforementioned scumbaggery.)
What about two women where one can drink ten beers and still has all her senses and consciousness and one that goes haywire after one?
Forcible rape is easy to define; statutory rape much less so and I'd argue that it's even impossible. People are way too different not only in their ability to hold their liquor, but also emotionally and rationally (meaning their thinking process).
Black and white thinking is almost never appropriate and this is one of the cases where it's actively harmful to a major degree. The law of course relies on black and white thinking and I wouldn't know how to implement a better system, unfortunately. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's no realistic solution to this.

*Incidentally, are two drunk people having sex raping each other?
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby mancityfooty » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:14 am

Matthew Notch wrote:Incidentally, someone's fetish is surely getting roofied, in which case as long as consent was given before the person gets the roofie, it's not rape, correct?


I've kind of been in this situation before.
I had a girlfriend who took one or two xanbars and told me I could do whatever I wanted to her.

So I did.

After she passed out, I carried her to bed. Made sure she would be comfortable (remove jeans and bra, and this was after having sex with her for about a year and exclusively with each other for about 8-9 months, and no, I didn't cop a feel). Then I took off her socks.
That was all I did, because, ewww, gross.
But she never liked to take her socks off in front of me.

I never knew what she expected me to do.
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Re: 4 Gender Double Standards Everyone's Apparently OK With

Postby Windy » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:19 am

If two drunk people have sex with each other, who raped who?
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