7 Real Horrible School Assignments

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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby LiteralHipster » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:03 pm

gisambards wrote:
LiteralHipster wrote:
Kate wrote:All people are prone to bigotry and hypocrisy. (...)

(...)


Sorry, but your response here bears no relation to what Kate said.

I don't think that all people, including members of collectives that are heavily discriminated against, are prone to bigotry and hipocrisy. I don't think, for example, that women who suffered genital mutilation, or gays imprisoned for being gays, or Jews who had to flee their country because of their ethnicity, are as prone to bigotry and hipocrisy as their oppressors. My objection to Kate has everything to do with what she wrote.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby sunglasses » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:05 pm

Man, I'm sure glad I never had a teacher ask me to find and take pictures with my parent's sex toys.

It was bad enough I found them to begin with.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby Tesseracts » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:05 pm

LiteralHipster wrote:Now, see what happened here: a Christian with at least slight anti-semitic tendencies came to the thread to complain that he has to endure jokes about horrible things that actually happened, and equating those to the completely unfounded and bigoted hatred of Jews. Fellow commenters quickly agreed that the whole humanity is like him. Is this not weird? At least surprising? TCS surprises me often, I must say. ;)

Uh, I'm not even going to try to figure out the rest of your argument. I feel like you're putting words in my mouth and it's too damn confusing. However, I just want to say I don't agree with the anti-Semite and I don't appreciate being told that I do. Save the "you're either with us or against us" stuff for some other place.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby LiteralHipster » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:12 pm

Tesseracts wrote:
LiteralHipster wrote:Now, see what happened here: a Christian with at least slight anti-semitic tendencies came to the thread to complain that he has to endure jokes about horrible things that actually happened, and equating those to the completely unfounded and bigoted hatred of Jews. Fellow commenters quickly agreed that the whole humanity is like him. Is this not weird? At least surprising? TCS surprises me often, I must say. ;)

Uh, I'm not even going to try to figure out the rest of your argument. I feel like you're putting words in my mouth and it's too damn confusing. However, I just want to say I don't agree with the anti-Semite and I don't appreciate being told that I do. Save the "you're either with us or against us" stuff for some other place.

Well, I didn't mention you specifically, so I feel you're putting words in my mouth. Andropov4 and Kate at least have said that all people are prone to bigotry, which I don't agree. Andropov4 specifically "fixed" what I said about Christians to make it refer to all humanity. Do we agree that Andropov4 and Kate are fellow commenters?
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby Tesseracts » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:16 pm

LiteralHipster wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:
LiteralHipster wrote:Now, see what happened here: a Christian with at least slight anti-semitic tendencies came to the thread to complain that he has to endure jokes about horrible things that actually happened, and equating those to the completely unfounded and bigoted hatred of Jews. Fellow commenters quickly agreed that the whole humanity is like him. Is this not weird? At least surprising? TCS surprises me often, I must say. ;)

Uh, I'm not even going to try to figure out the rest of your argument. I feel like you're putting words in my mouth and it's too damn confusing. However, I just want to say I don't agree with the anti-Semite and I don't appreciate being told that I do. Save the "you're either with us or against us" stuff for some other place.

Well, I didn't mention you specifically, so I feel you're putting words in my mouth. Andropov4 and Kate at least have said that all people are prone to bigotry, which I don't agree. Andropov4 specifically "fixed" what I said about Christians to make it refer to all humanity. Do we agree that Andropov4 and Kate are fellow commenters?

I'm quite certain neither Andro nor Kate agreed that "all of humanity" is like this one specific individual who says they harbor prejudice against Jews. You're twisting their words. I don't appreciate your weaseling directed at Andro or Kate either.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby sunglasses » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:16 pm

I need to be completely honest with all of you.

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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby LiteralHipster » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:18 pm

OK, this is pointless. I quit.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby gisambards » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:35 pm

LiteralHipster wrote:
gisambards wrote:
LiteralHipster wrote:
Kate wrote:All people are prone to bigotry and hypocrisy. (...)

(...)


Sorry, but your response here bears no relation to what Kate said.

I don't think that all people, including members of collectives that are heavily discriminated against, are prone to bigotry and hipocrisy. I don't think, for example, that women who suffered genital mutilation, or gays imprisoned for being gays, or Jews who had to flee their country because of their ethnicity, are as prone to bigotry and hipocrisy as their oppressors. My objection to Kate has everything to do with what she wrote.


Being a victim of intolerance does not automatically make someone tolerant. A woman who suffered genital mutilation might be homophobic, a homosexual imprisoned for homosexuality might be racist, and a Jew who had to flee a pogrom might be sexist. People are incredibly complex, and that FGM victim, that imprisoned homosexual and that exiled Jew are not simply victims - they are thinking, feeling people, with their own beliefs, attitudes and (almost certainly) prejudices.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby Andropov4 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:35 pm

gisambards wrote:
LiteralHipster wrote:
gisambards wrote:
LiteralHipster wrote:
Kate wrote:All people are prone to bigotry and hypocrisy. (...)

(...)


Sorry, but your response here bears no relation to what Kate said.

I don't think that all people, including members of collectives that are heavily discriminated against, are prone to bigotry and hipocrisy. I don't think, for example, that women who suffered genital mutilation, or gays imprisoned for being gays, or Jews who had to flee their country because of their ethnicity, are as prone to bigotry and hipocrisy as their oppressors. My objection to Kate has everything to do with what she wrote.


Being a victim of intolerance does not automatically make someone tolerant. A woman who suffered genital mutilation might be homophobic, a homosexual imprisoned for homosexuality might be racist, and a Jew who had to flee a pogrom might be sexist. People are incredibly complex, and that FGM victim, that imprisoned homosexual and that exiled Jew are not simply victims - they are thinking, feeling people, with their own beliefs, attitudes and (almost certainly) prejudices.


I have to agree. I know it's only a single data point, but a significant part of Maus (which you should read if you haven't) is Art Spiegelman struggling to understand the racism of his father, a Jewish Holocaust survivor. Or one could consider the virulent and occasionally violent racism of Irish immigrants in the 19th century. Being a member of a downtrodden group doesn't mean you're automatically less likely to try to tread on another group.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby Kate » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:42 pm

I'd kind of like to add the point that as someone who has been to many, many, many victim support groups, I think being victimized makes some people even more prone to prejudice than they were before. I know it did for me. It's natural; when a certain sort of person treats you poorly, you associate the damage that was done to you with that type of person. You can see it on the internet a lot with a few vocal atheists who hate all Christians because some Christians were awful to them. You can see it with a few vocal women who hate all men because some men were awful to them. Their experiences have taught them that X group is dangerous, when in reality, X individual is dangerous. It's just really, really hard to separate those psychologically for some people. And we can feel sorry for those people, but it would be wrong to deny them the humanity of having flaws. They've already been denied their humanity before, there's no reason to do it the other way.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby rowdyrodimus » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:53 pm

To anyone I upset with my comments, I offer my most sincere apologies. As I said in my post, it was also based on treatment I have received not just what happened to my Grandpa, I just used his as an example. I really want to get past these things and if you notice in my response to Kate, I began seeing that I placed so much importance on the treatment my Grandpa received not because it was awful, it was more misplaced anger of never getting the chance to meet him and my father losing his at such a young age. He wouldn't have been working at the glass plant had he gotten the loan, so I blamed his death on not being able to buy out his father in laws portion of Armbruster & Co. (Google it, it's a cool story. The guy they mention as one of the founders, Charles Kaiser, was my Great Grandfather, my Grandma's father.). It's misplaced anger and I see that. I have to work on it, hell, I'm thinking of going to see someone about it as I have severe abandonment issues and that might be a part of it.

Again, I want to apologize for any upset or hurt feelings I might have caused. No, I'm not going to say I apologize as that seems forced and robotic. I'm sorry for it and I promise to you all, I am going to work on my issues. For the record, nobody asked me to do this, I wasn't told I would be suspended or banned for it by any mod or any other person, I wanted to do this from the bottom of my heart as someone who only wants everyone to get along and to be as successful in life as possible. Again, I'm sorry.
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Re: 7 Real Horrible School Assignments

Postby AdricDePsycho » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:08 am

It's all good, man.

I sometimes get the feeling that all of us (and yes, ALL of us) are more or less "broken" in a sense. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you, but it makes me happy that we have this site: we get to help each other.
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