5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby AdricDePsycho » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:43 pm

archaeologydalek wrote:
AdricDePsycho wrote:Don't tell the Cracked writers...their brains will explode from something that removes their need for clickbait.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I saw this article go up t'other day and just knew that there'd be a 'CRACKED HATES MARVEL' thread. Psychic powers? Time travel? Time being a flat circle? I'll let you be the judge.

No no, I don't think you guys hate Marvel...I just think you guys need to research these things better. Again, let me bring back the "Black Widow says she's a monster because she can't have kids" statement, and see how it has been refuted.

Also, please do not talk to me in that patronizing tone you use whenever these issues get brought up.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby archaeologydalek » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:57 pm

REDACTED
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby gisambards » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:16 pm

I mostly thought the article was good, and I agreed with most of it - I so want a Black Widow movie - but I had one criticism besides the obvious "Black Widow is a monster because she can't have kids" mistake: I think the criticism aimed at Guardians of the Galaxy in #1 is unfair.
Yes, Gamora is called a whore, once. But we're not supposed to agree with the remark, it's a throwaway insult from Drax, and - as a writer - I hate the thought of having to censor what characters say for fear it will be seen as the opinion of the writer of the film. Characters can say sexist stuff without the film being sexist, and it's not really comparable to real people calling Black Widow a slut, because there that is real people saying that, which would imply a bit of sexism on their part.
Also, the writer (of the article) does suggest that Gamora starts off a bad guy, and is reformed by the love of a man - that's not what happens, she becomes good on her own, and is technically good at the start of the film (if bad before the start of the film).
But besides those points, I thought this was a fine article.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby AdricDePsycho » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:18 pm

I'm not saying that the writers "hate" the movies (and my earlier comment was a joke, though admittedly in bad taste), but I am annoyed at the frequency of these articles and at the incorrect claims they put forth that make people question the validity of whether they even pay attention to these films (for example, the claim that Odin becomes evil for no reason at the end of Thor: The Dark World, or that SHIELD was at fault for Loki coming to Earth in The Avengers), though that is not so much a problem for me as for the masses.

Now, I DID say it had a valid point about merchandise. It is annoying that Black Widow gets no action figures. It is even a tad sexist that a toy of her motorcycle has Captain America included, even though he doesn't ride one. It downright pisses me off, and it's even more idiotic when DC pulls the same bullshit (need I bring up the cancellation of Young Justice for "not having enough male viewership"). I want to discuss that, but I am mainly cathartic about that claim for my own personal reasons, and you know what, I am sorry about that, but my point still stands that that scene was stupid to bring up in the article.

Additionally, I do want more movies with female superheroes (which we are getting in a few years). Personally, I'd rather explore Black Widow's origin on a TV series on Netflix instead of a movie (it'd allow a younger actress to play Natasha, and there'd be more depth to explore in the story), but I do want more female representation (get X-Men back and make a fucking Dazzler movie already). Honestly, I just thought the article could have handled it better.

I apologize for my comments, but my point still stands that the article could have been written a bit better.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby sunglasses » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:36 pm

To be fair, a lot of women have felt like they are lesser if they cannot have children. Some have said they felt as if their infertility turned them into a judgemental monster or a failure.

There are some people who are mystified by women who don't have children and will suggest all sorts of crap to women who can't have children. "Have you tried these Chinese herbs?"

So yes, whether or not you can have children can very much affect someone. Just wanted to throw that out there.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby AdricDePsycho » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:43 pm

I just want to move on from the Black Widow debacle right now. I brought it up for catharsis because I HATE seeing it everywhere. It's annoying how many times it gets brought up on the internet, I swear.

Right now, my catharsis had turned to the idiots who won't make a fucking Black Widow action figure. I have a bone to pick with how it feels a bit sexist to market anything Marvel for boys (that's actually why they bought Marvel).
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby sunglasses » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:47 pm

I'm going to buy a barbie, dye its hair red, and make a wee leather catsuit for it. Close enough?

Also, uh, you could get this one.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby AdricDePsycho » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:51 pm

$39.99?

What the fuck?!? I can buy a meal for a family of five for $39.99!
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby Askias » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:52 pm

gisambards wrote:I mostly thought the article was good, and I agreed with most of it - I so want a Black Widow movie - but I had one criticism besides the obvious "Black Widow is a monster because she can't have kids" mistake: I think the criticism aimed at Guardians of the Galaxy in #1 is unfair.
Yes, Gamora is called a whore, once. But we're not supposed to agree with the remark, it's a throwaway insult from Drax, and - as a writer - I hate the thought of having to censor what characters say for fear it will be seen as the opinion of the writer of the film. Characters can say sexist stuff without the film being sexist, and it's not really comparable to real people calling Black Widow a slut, because there that is real people saying that, which would imply a bit of sexism on their part.
Also, the writer (of the article) does suggest that Gamora starts off a bad guy, and is reformed by the love of a man - that's not what happens, she becomes good on her own, and is technically good at the start of the film (if bad before the start of the film).
But besides those points, I thought this was a fine article.


The whole 'calling Gamora a whore' thing ticks me off for another reason: it doesn't make sense. I agree with your point, but given the 'Cracked takes another shit on Marvel movies'-talk gets pretty old, I'm going on a small tangent.

Gamora, as far as the movie tells us, is not a whore. It is a throwaway insult, as you said. Here's the thing though: The one using it is Drax. What is the first (or maybe second) thing we learn about Drax? He takes everything literally and doesn't use metaphores. He doesn't understand the 'slit his throat' gesture and says 'nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast, I would catch it.'. Apart from the constantly calling Gamora a whore, his speech pattern is completely in line with this thinking style, which causes it to stick out to me. So I agree that a character saying sexist insults shouldn't and doesn't make a movie sexist, I think it makes no sense for this particular one to say it.

That 'turns good through the love of a man'-thing is making assumptions for Widow (while she's very postive towards Hawkeye, the only time she's outright expressing love for him is when she's playing Loki in Avengers Assemble) and an insult to Gamora. She turns her back to Thanos - one of the most terrifying figures in the Marvel universe - before the beginning of the movie, and she manages to deceive him into sending her after the stone, which she already has plans with. Maybe Quinn gives her a push, but that's more him convincing her alongside Rocket that fighting Ronan is feasible.

And since I'm on tangents anyway, why do people want a Black Widow movie? I want a Wasp movie, with or without Ant-Man, and I'm looking forward to Captain Marvel, but I'll probably watch a Hawkeye movie before I watch a Black Widow movie. She's not that interesting a character (being the typical best-person-at-the-dangerous-job-ever support character) and it doesn't help that her character isn't totally consistent between movies (compare Iron Man 2, Avengers Assemble, CA: Winter Soldier, and Age of Ultron). Without much to go with and no super powers to speak of besides plot armor, I wouldn't know what a movie starring her would be like. (That said, I haven't seen much of what you'd call spy movies, given I can't even get through a James Bond movie. I tried several, older and recent.)
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby gisambards » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:57 pm

Are action figures normally that expensive? If so, holy cow, who buys them? If not, still holy cow, who would buy that?

Still, at least there is a Black Widow action figure out there. Plus she comes with an impractically massive gun, and what appears to be her own severed head and hands! I don't remember that bit of the film, but whatever: it's kickass!
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby AdricDePsycho » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:01 am

I just want an origins story for her and Hawkeye on Netflix. That's all I'm asking, because Scarjo will be in her 40s by the time the prospects of a movie come around. And I don't see why people are begging so much for one...Marvel has had to postpone movies before (The Runaways, anyone?), but why focus on Black Widow so much? There's like 3 girls in The Runaways!

And yeah, the "power of love" thing is stupid. Also, I never thought that Drax was being sexist, I thought he was being brutally honest (he calls her and "the dumb tree" his friends in that scene) without trying to be intentionally mean.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:05 am

IIRC, the whole thing started with a bunch of articles predicting that Guardians of the Galaxy was going to fail, and the comment section just got really fed up with them.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby AdricDePsycho » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:12 am

Yeah, part of the contempt for the articles is that Cracked did an article in 2013 that said Captain America: The Winter Soldier, X-Men: Days of Future Passed, and Guardians of the Galaxy would all fail. They didn't, but Cracked has made a good deal of critiques of the MCU that had some notable fallacies and left some with a bad impression that's hard to shake off.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby gisambards » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:27 am

You should remember that Cracked is not a single body, and there are several different writers. I don't think it's fair to disregard a writer's opinion on the MCU because another writer on the site wrote a duff article on it.
Also on that point - I don't think it's fair to have a go at Cracked writers for falsely predicting the failure of movies. Predicting stuff is hard, and their arguments are often valid at the time of writing - they just seem bad with hindsight (though there is definitely occasionally a bit too much pessimism or bad analysis, but everyone makes mistakes). I also remind you that they did not predict Guardians of the Galaxy would fail - they predicted people would be "tricked into seeing it". And in a sense they were - the opening audiences didn't go and see it because it was good, they had no way of knowing that: they went to see it mostly for the reasons Cracked said (and then it turned out the film was really good anyway).
As I say, these things are hard to predict. In all honesty, I thought Ant-Man would fail, and had I worked for Cracked I would probably have asked to write an article explaining why. And then I'd have turned out to be wrong.
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Re: 5 Ways Marvel Movies Keep Screwing Up Female Superheroes

Postby D-LOGAN » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:41 am

sunglasses wrote:I'm going to buy a barbie, dye its hair red, and make a wee leather catsuit for it.


No need, I've got a whole bunch of those in a box in my van if you want some. Nothing to do with this movie character ... I just happen to have them ....
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