Gaming and women we know this dance already.

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Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby thatindianguy » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:06 pm

http://www.cracked.com/article_22230_5-ugly-realities-being-woman-in-gaming-industry.html

So as I have decided to stop giving Cracked the benefit of the doubt on these articles i have to ask now.

Was this trash or not?
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby Masonator » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:08 pm

No, it's recycled.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby Tesseracts » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:45 pm

I just read it. It's not bad. It's another one of those "sexism exists" articles, nothing really controversial. However I don't agree with this thing.
Every woman we talked to has encountered the attitude "You just need to suck it up and be strong." But, as Katie points out, that's putting the onus on the wrong person.

"I see that as kind of victim-blaming. It's not other people's fault for being terrible human beings; it's your fault for not being able to deal with it. There's something wrong with you, not them. And that's a really sad attitude for people to have to put up with. But it's quite common. I think every woman in the industry knows it, whether they admit it or not."

This doesn't sound like victim blaming. If it's said in a judgmental way, it could be victim blaming, but you can also advise someone on how to deal with trolls without necessarily blaming them for being trolled.

Katie once wrote an article about the time a PR representative took the keyboard away from her and played the game they were demoing on her behalf. All the while he explained the basics of the medium as though she were a newcomer to the phenomenon of "moving picture amusements" and not someone wearing a press pass. She was immediately accused of making the story up by some readers, because when has a man ever been condescending to a woman regarding technology?

Other readers said it was her own fault for not speaking up and correcting the misconception, while still others suggested she was exaggerating it on account of all her crazy female emotions.

I wonder, did these readers say it was "her fault," or did they merely suggest it would have been best for her to not take this lying down? Nobody thinks men should tolerate being talked down to, and we shouldn't expect women to put up with it either. I think if this same thing happened to a man he would be less likely to be passive and then write an article about it on the internet. He would be more likely to confront the situation at the moment it happens. That's a good thing, because it means the problem is resolved immediately and the game demoing can go on as normal.

"I think what men need to understand is that their voice is, frankly, more important than mine in talking to other men and getting their behavior to change. If I call out a guy, he instantly gets extremely defensive, and I'm just some pissed-off feminist chick being hysterical like women are. But if it's a guy talking to a peer, it has more credibility with the kind of men that need to examine their behavior. So, when you see guys saying awful things, just speak up about it. Because we can't change this without your help."
This hasn't been my experience. I think men are less likely to immediately agree with my point of view on sexism than women are, but men are still willing to discuss it. If they weren't, we wouldn't be seeing this article on Cracked. There would be no audience.

If the guy you're calling out is a complete asshole (which is likely considering that his behavior is bad enough it needs to be called out), then nobody, male or female, is going to make him reconsider.

Besides, how exactly are women supposed to get their voices heard if they never speak up? I think women should speak for their own interests, just as I think everybody should speak up for their own interests. If I say that, am I "victim blaming?" Is the onus entirely on men to not be sexist and to speak out against sexism? What about when women in the industry are sexist, who's job is it to stop that? This is sounding a little too much like a damsel in distress thing to me, they're acting like women are never going to accomplish anything unless a man helps.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby EstebanColberto » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:55 pm

I've been thinking recently. You know the American sport NASCAR? It's our huge car racing organization. It's very popular in the Deep South, Texas, and parts of the Midwest and I've noticed a disproportionate number of NASCAR fans are huge racists and I couldn't find an explanation for it. Then it hit me! NASCAR is racist!

I say we get a bunch of minorities together to call NASCAR and it's fans racist. Their statements might get them a lot of hate mail from fans saying they aren't racists themselves, but don't let that fool you. Every statement criticizing and what they say is only motivated by racism. NASCAR needs to be more inclusive! The sport, and the sport alone, is causing all the racism in the Deep South, Texas, and parts of the Midwest. No other extenuating factors apply.

Before we start this campaign, I have to warn you that I know a black guy that calls himself a redneck and likes the sport who'll probably complain about our actions and will ask us to stop, but don't listen to him. He's just an Uncle Tom who has internalized racism that just doesn't realize how oppressed he is by NASCAR.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby sunglasses » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:08 pm

Tesseracts wrote:Besides, how exactly are women supposed to get their voices heard if they never speak up? I think women should speak for their own interests, just as I think everybody should speak up for their own interests. If I say that, am I "victim blaming?" Is the onus entirely on men to not be sexist and to speak out against sexism? What about when women in the industry are sexist, who's job is it to stop that? This is sounding a little too much like a damsel in distress thing to me, they're acting like women are never going to accomplish anything unless a man helps.


I do agree with what you're saying but it's hard to speak up when you're called a bitch for speaking up.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby Tesseracts » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:18 pm

sunglasses wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:Besides, how exactly are women supposed to get their voices heard if they never speak up? I think women should speak for their own interests, just as I think everybody should speak up for their own interests. If I say that, am I "victim blaming?" Is the onus entirely on men to not be sexist and to speak out against sexism? What about when women in the industry are sexist, who's job is it to stop that? This is sounding a little too much like a damsel in distress thing to me, they're acting like women are never going to accomplish anything unless a man helps.


I do agree with what you're saying but it's hard to speak up when you're called a bitch for speaking up.

Yep, I've seen plenty of evidence that women are judged more harshly for being assertive than men are for the same behavior. I don't think that necessarily means women need to always avoid being assertive, although they may want to use more caution. Like with the demoing incident, it seems to me like that error could have been corrected politely without much risk.

Also, it's insulting to men to act like they're not capable of taking women seriously and must hear all arguments from the mouth of another man. I get that they're trying to get men to take part in stopping sexism, and that's a good goal to have, but I'm not entirely comfortable with generalizations about how oblivious men are.

I just wrote this comment on the article. It's basically what I already said but in other words.

I don't believe it is victim blaming to suggest women should confront anybody who disrespects them. If someone assumes your job is to make coffee and your job is actually more complicated than making coffee, don't make the coffee anyway and then complain in your blog about it. Tell them, to their face, you are not the coffee-maker. Facing issues head on is the best way to resolve them. I don't like the idea that men need to speak up against sexism for women, seems a little too much like a damsel in distress thing. Of course the more men understand sexism, the better, and it's a good thing if men are speaking up. I just don't think it always has to be men, and I don't think it's necessarily victim blaming to tell women to be tough and not tolerate any bullshit.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby LegionofShrooms » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:29 pm

I honestly have no opinions on this one as I flatly refused to read it. I saw the words "woman" and "gaming industry" in a Cracked title and that was all I need to go all
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby OrangeEyebrows » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:17 pm

Tesseracts wrote:If the guy you're calling out is a complete asshole (which is likely considering that his behavior is bad enough it needs to be called out), then nobody, male or female, is going to make him reconsider.


Quite so. In fact terrible people have invented the term "white knighting" specifically so they can be just as dismissive of men's opinions on sexism as women's.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby MisterKrinkle » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:31 pm

Tesseracts wrote:Also, it's insulting to men to act like they're not capable of taking women seriously and must hear all arguments from the mouth of another man. I get that they're trying to get men to take part in stopping sexism, and that's a good goal to have, but I'm not entirely comfortable with generalizations about how oblivious men are.

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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby DamianaRaven » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:47 pm

Number 3 is a problem that's relevant to all working women, not just those in the gaming industry. There are many ways to balance family and career - women in every profession are pulling it off with varying degrees of success. There's little point in whining about the fact that none of the choices/sacrifices are easy to make. There's a LOT more society could be doing to facilitate the balance between work and family, but all of the solutions entail collective sacrifices (such as higher taxes to subsidize day care costs) and a lot of Americans still get sore and sullen over the notion of their earnings being used to support someone else's lifestyle. You can spot these types by their frequent use of the phrase "my tax dollars."

Anyway, my point is that the family/career paradox is not at all unique to the gaming industry. Also, they've now changed the title to include the word "sexist." Nice
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby subotai » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:29 pm

The article has Brianna Wu, that should tell you all you need to know. That woman has made her career off the 'sexism'.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby gisambards » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:50 pm

I have to say the comments section on this article is like the perfect shit-storm of every negative stereotype you'd expect to turn up to an article on feminism:
IN THE ONE CORNER:
You have the extremist MRAs, who insist everything in the article is lies, and then you have the genuine, literal misogynists (i.e. men who literally hate women), who say everything in the article is probably true but a good thing.
AND IN THE OTHER CORNER:
You have the bad SJWs, the ones who spend more time attacking other feminists with slightly dissenting (read: reasonable) opinions than anyone else, and then you have that weird minority of feminists who in the ultimate irony have become misandrists, the exact opposite of the worst of the MRAs. There are commenters accusing Cracked of misogyny, simply because a man collated the article. I mean, holy shit, do they think that accomplishes anything?
I myself was accosted by a Sarcasmo, who said my personal opinion on feminism (that example-setting is the most likely way for women to get ahead in male-dominated industries) was invalid because I'm male, and then explained to me his opinion (because yes, Sarcasmo, who used to write articles for Cracked, is also male).
It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby subotai » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:53 pm

I was called a woman-hater who wants to silence women's voices for pointing out that Brianna Wu has made serious money off of all this, and that she doesn't tolerate neutral viewpoints or dissent in discussion.
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:07 pm

gisambards wrote:I have to say the comments section on this article is like the perfect shit-storm of every negative stereotype you'd expect to turn up to an article on feminism:
IN THE ONE CORNER:
You have the extremist MRAs, who insist everything in the article is lies, and then you have the genuine, literal misogynists (i.e. men who literally hate women), who say everything in the article is probably true but a good thing.
AND IN THE OTHER CORNER:
You have the bad SJWs, the ones who spend more time attacking other feminists with slightly dissenting (read: reasonable) opinions than anyone else, and then you have that weird minority of feminists who in the ultimate irony have become misandrists, the exact opposite of the worst of the MRAs. There are commenters accusing Cracked of misogyny, simply because a man collated the article. I mean, holy shit, do they think that accomplishes anything?
I myself was accosted by a Sarcasmo, who said my personal opinion on feminism (that example-setting is the most likely way for women to get ahead in male-dominated industries) was invalid because I'm male, and then explained to me his opinion (because yes, Sarcasmo, who used to write articles for Cracked, is also male).
It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.

Would it really be so much to ask for these people to just shut up and stop giving the slightest bit of a shit about any possible insecurities or whatever other pathetic things that led them to such views? It's pathetic, annoying, and tab-worthy. They should just shut the fuck up and just....just be. Why can't they just be?
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Re: Gaming and women we know this dance already.

Postby CommanderRidley » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:08 pm

I clicked on it, saw "Brianna Wu", and noped the fuck off Cracked forever.

Can we not discuss sexism without the known crazies? Also, can we talk about sexism in other fields than gaming for once?

Of course not, because nobody actually cares about sexism, they care about getting clicks for their shitty website after all the people who knew how to write good dick jokes left.
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