5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Woman

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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:51 am

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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby NathanLoiselle » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:43 am

My only comment for this article.

"I HATE ALL OF YOU!"
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby DoglovingJim » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:39 am

NathanLoiselle wrote:My only comment for this article.

"I HATE ALL OF YOU!"


Even me?
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby JamishT » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:41 am

DoglovingJim wrote:
NathanLoiselle wrote:My only comment for this article.

"I HATE ALL OF YOU!"


Even me?


Especially me, right?
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby sunglasses » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:45 pm

JamishT wrote:
DoglovingJim wrote:
NathanLoiselle wrote:My only comment for this article.

"I HATE ALL OF YOU!"


Even me?


Especially me, right?


It's the only way to be fair
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby subotai » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:57 pm

52xMax wrote:I think oligarchy is a more appropriate term, given that it's always people at the top who benefit from the way societies are structured, while people at the bottom get the lower end of the stick.


Again,not to sidetrack, but f you're talking about the US, and most Western countries, they're Plutocracies, with a slide towards Oligarchy.

And you're right, understanding that reality, is far more helpful in dealing with social issues than sticking to an outdated, mostly disproven theory of Patriarchy.
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby 52xMax » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:16 am

I was talking about the modern "western" world, including first world countries like Europe and the US, and third world "democracies" such as the one I live in. Places were people are allowed to vote and have free speech, at least in theory.

To be perfectly clear, I never meant to imply that things are peachy for women everywhere. The sad reality is that in many if not all aspects of life, with all things being equal, women have a harder time getting things done than if they were men, and they face a more hostile environment along with prejudice from both men and other women. The problem I have is that modern feminism theory loves to blame it all on the Patriarchy™ when reality is much more complicated than that. In most places which give a damn about equality, there are laws and other measures in place to ensure that people are treated fairly regardless of things such as genre, sexual orientation, race and economic status. If there's a discrepancy from theory to practice it's not for a lack of effort on the part of men and women everywhere, and saying that it's ingrained in our society negates all the real progress we've accomplished as a whole through lifetimes of hard work.

So, I don't think we live in a patriarchal state. There are some places in the world where women are treated as second-class citizens, sold into sexual slavery, their genitals are cut, and many other horrible things happen to women even in places we think of as civilized. That is not to say things are perfect here and that very real issues in our society should be treated as "first world problems". The root of all those problems is not simply misogyny or trying to keep women subjugated, and often there are plenty of male victims of the very same wrongdoings, even when it happens in lower numbers. That is why I think singling genre as an issue is a mistake, as more often than not the distinction becomes useless.

Civil and human right problems get mislabeled as gender issues, and sometimes the efforts to fight these problems get focused on one type of victim, and that's how we end up with cases such as rape, where male targets of these attacks go largely ignored or unnoticed.
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:49 am

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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby Kate » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:41 am

You know, upon further reflection, I think another issue I have with even saying we live in a patriarchal society is that when we do that, we are inherently assigning higher value to traditionally male roles.

It is essentially saying, there are traditionally masculine things and traditionally feminine things; women who want to do masculine things have a harder time, men who want to do feminine things have a harder time, but it is a bigger problem that women who want to do masculine things have a harder time because those are the more valuable things.

I can understand that when we're talking about privileges and rights. In the past, men could vote, own property, own their wives essentially, own their children, they were favored for inheritance even if they had five older sisters, etc. Sure, women were never legally required to go die for their country, and that's a privilege too, but the other things probably outweigh that from our point of view.

But...the privileges and rights have been equalized in our society here. If any gender has the advantage when it comes to their children, it's women, in fact, and as for the rest it's pretty much equal.

The only thing left to discuss is roles. If when we discuss roles we acknowledge that femininity is encouraged in women and discouraged in men. It seems to me that calling our society patriarchal takes away from the value of traditionally feminine roles. Look at this article (to bring it back to the topic a little bit). The problem is supposedly that "real men can't be raped by women, because real men want sex and are strong enough to stop women who they don't want to have sex with." That's a bad attitude. "Real men." That's no better than "Real women stay at home and take care of the kids." But we're affixing the patriarchal label to it only because in the past, this kind of gender dynamic enforced actual legal restrictions.

We could just as easily call it a matriarchal society and say that it favors women who traditionally fit into the feminine roles; after all, I have more reproductive rights than men do, I have more resources available to me as a woman than men do, I have virtually no social pressure on me to conform to a role of provider. I have equal rights and more privileges as a woman, in other words (especially as a woman in a feminine role).

So I need to ask: is my role not as valuable, because it is feminine? If it is equally valuable, then I wish we could pick a gender-neutral word for this system that enforces masculine and feminine roles.
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby 52xMax » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:46 am

Yeah, pretty much everything Kate said. But since i was already coming up with this reply to FTC i don't want to let it go to waste.


"Patriarchy" is not ingrained in our society, so much as it is a part of our culture. But culture is not a static, monolithic state, and what is deemed the status quo one day becomes outdated in the span of a generation, sometimes even less than that.

If you think the problem is that people have wrong perceptions about our roles in society, prove them wrong and that will help them change their minds. Lead by example, and shame those who want to get stuck in the past. Doesn't mean you're not gonna meet some resistance, but if you keep blaming the system and complaining that people don't automatically give you respect just because you demand it, then change is going to take much longer.

I think we are in agreement about the big issues, and we might just be quibbling about terminology. I don't like patriarchy because it's inaccurate and misleading, which can generate further gaps that will need to be fixed along the way. You think the term is accurate because we live in a society that favors men over women, and even though I don't think that tells the whole story, I can see where you're coming from and I agree on most of the things you say. Let that suffice by now.
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:18 am

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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:27 am

Kate wrote:You know, upon further reflection, I think another issue I have with even saying we live in a patriarchal society is that when we do that, we are inherently assigning higher value to traditionally male roles.

It is essentially saying, there are traditionally masculine things and traditionally feminine things; women who want to do masculine things have a harder time, men who want to do feminine things have a harder time, but it is a bigger problem that women who want to do masculine things have a harder time because those are the more valuable things.

I can understand that when we're talking about privileges and rights. In the past, men could vote, own property, own their wives essentially, own their children, they were favored for inheritance even if they had five older sisters, etc. Sure, women were never legally required to go die for their country, and that's a privilege too, but the other things probably outweigh that from our point of view.

But...the privileges and rights have been equalized in our society here. If any gender has the advantage when it comes to their children, it's women, in fact, and as for the rest it's pretty much equal.

The only thing left to discuss is roles. If when we discuss roles we acknowledge that femininity is encouraged in women and discouraged in men. It seems to me that calling our society patriarchal takes away from the value of traditionally feminine roles. Look at this article (to bring it back to the topic a little bit). The problem is supposedly that "real men can't be raped by women, because real men want sex and are strong enough to stop women who they don't want to have sex with." That's a bad attitude. "Real men." That's no better than "Real women stay at home and take care of the kids." But we're affixing the patriarchal label to it only because in the past, this kind of gender dynamic enforced actual legal restrictions.


That's not so much "Dah Patriarchy!" as it is toxic masculinity, the idea that all men should strive to be robot like sociopaths because John Wayne , the 1950s,and Tea and Sympathy.
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby Kate » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:30 am

I think that depends on how we look at power. Power can be political, it can be economic. It can be local, as you pointed out, or widespread. It can be about exerting your influence on others, or about asserting your own will to control your situation.

I feel like I have more power than my husband, for example, because going back to that rights and privileges thing, I have more options available to me to assert my will and control my own situation and station. I have more resources, I have more rights, I have more socially acceptable options; how does that translate to less power?

CEOs and politicians have more power in a sense, but it's pretty concentrated. The average man has less power than the average woman, simply because the average woman in our culture has...well, that stuff I mentioned. More resources, more rights, more options. That gives them, overall, at least as much influence as men, despite the over-representation of men in positions of authority. It's maddening because we have those privileges and rights in order to try and even the scales, but in doing so, it's still left us in a situation that I consider overall favorable to women. It could possibly be balanced out by men's edge financially, I suppose. Unless they're women under 30 and single/childless; you ladies are out-earning your male peers (because women in this generation are more likely to have higher education, and, women with higher education are more likely to marry later).

If we're going to name a system based on one type of power advantage, fair enough...but I think that doing that is, in itself, prejudiced, and I think that the term patriarchal society tends to encompass more than just that. It tends to encompass male dominance in other spheres. I think we did, at one point, have a patriarchal society. I'm not going to question that. I think some of our mothers even lived in it. But I don't think we have one today. I think women, in general, have too much power to say that we do, even if we're not all the way to gender equality yet.
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby Edgar Cabrera » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:42 am

Ericthebearjew wrote: [...] Tea and Sympathy

Wow, when one looks at a movie titled "Tea and Sympathy" I'd expect a Jane Austen-like story, not a story about a guy trying to prove his masculinity and bone Deborah Kerr, but here we are.
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Re: 5 Bizarre Realities of Being A Man Who Was Raped By A Wo

Postby Jack Road » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:44 am

WARNING: SUPER LONG POST AHEAD: SPOILERED FOR YOUR PROTECTION

Spoiler: show
The problem in this is that we are equating power with equality. Equality and power are like two travellers that have a lot in common, and have agreed to travel alongside each other for certain parts of their journey. But they are not inherently connected. When we talk about equality in this setting we are referring to social equality. Which is the concept that all people in a certain group have the same status in certain respects. "In certain respects" is what we struggle with when it comes to social gender equality.

We can pretty much all agree that sex, gender, race, age, sexual orientation, origin, caste or class, income or property, language, religion, convictions, opinions, health or disability must not result in unequal treatment under the law and should not reduce opportunities unjustifiably. To borrow from Wikipedia. That is not logically contested.

Here is our struggle. We had a hard enough time giving African Americans the same status as other humans in our certain group. And there are no significant differences between us. We are all human. We still haven’t given proper status to Native Americans. And again, that is two man-made separations of the same people.

Now we have reached a point where we are trying to give the same status to two groups of people who are actually significantly, demonstrably different. And that is where we get into trouble with “in certain respects.”

Men and women are not the same. We do not behave in the same way to the same experiences. Some of that is part of our actual nature. Some of that is part of our culture. None of it has anything to do with social equality. Social equality just means, you have the same opportunities, and you get the same treatment under law. It does not mean that men have to become more feminine, or that women have to become more masculine. It does require women to work or men to raise children. Women don’t need to be CEO en masse in order to be equal. Men don’t need to hold a larger percentage in typically female dominated sectors in order to be equal.

When you are arguing about these things, you are not arguing about equality, you are arguing about significant cultural change. And it is not something that can be handled under the banner of social equality.

The idea that our culture is somehow opposed to our nature is erroneous. Our culture is an evolution, controlled by none of us, but yet all of us. It has been adapting and changing for as long as we have been a species. For example, women are not as prevalent in STEM fields because our culture does not encourage young women in that direction as much as it does men. It is not because men are evil or women are evil or men have more power or women have more power. It is because that is where we are. And if we don’t like it we can change it, we just can’t change it under the banner of social equality, because it doesn’t fit. It is like trying to teach physics to someone using only the third law of thermodynamics. Social equality is an aspect of our culture. Our entire culture doesn't fit into it.

Take the Civil Rights movement. That was a movement towards social equality. African Americans wanted to be treated the same way as everyone else. And for the most part they achieved that status under law. But it is still demonstrable that people named with traditional African-American names are less likely to get interviews at certain firms. That African Americans don’t match the percentages of other groups in certain fields. That is because that is an outpouring of our culture, and culture doesn't change because of social equality changing. It is the other way around.

What is my point in all of this? If you think men can be raped by women, and that is just as bad as women being raped by men, then say that. And fight for social equality. But don’t say that the reason this injustice exists is because of some concept like the Patriarchy. It is meaningless. It does nothing. It does less than nothing, it causes harm.

Imagine a machine knitting away, a scarf that continues forever. And at some point it makes an error. And that error leads to threads farther down the line fighting against that error, striving to correct it. They correct it by moving forward, and not making that error again. Nothing gets corrected by some thread saying “hang on, that error should never have happened” and then just lapsing into cyclical hatred of it.

Honestly the fact that we are talking about this means it is going to get fixed. So I sometimes feel like I should just let things go. But I have this fear, that if, as we are fighting for social equality, we begin victim blaming, it is just going to end in the whole thing flipping over. Which I don’t personally want, I would prefer we get rid of this segment altogether.

Let me be very clear about this next part. The fact that males have more immediately apparent power does not mean that males are at fault for this. Or that any collective set is at fault for this.

Let me try to explain. Go back to the endless scarf. Keep following back to when it began. It began long before we as a species became a species, and long before we became self-reflective. We have this bad tendency to think of our frontal lobes as somehow apart from the natural progression of things. But it isn’t. The fact that we have this illusion of perception and controlled destiny does not mean it actually exists outside of the spectrum of nature. Even what I am calling “errors” in the scarf are not really errors. Backing out of our developed sense of morality, these “errors” are just natural progressions of what it takes to survive or not survive. And in fact these “errors” create their own correctors.

Imagine a blue bee and a red bee, both with a collection of marbles. The blue bee tries to take the red bee’s marbles, and the red bee tries to take the blue bee’s marbles. They don’t always do this by force. Sometimes they trade. Sometimes they trick. Then they have children. And those children keep switching. And they have children. So on and so forth. Sometimes they even switch colors, or even become new colors. At any point is it fair for the either bee to declare that the other is evil because they have marbles they want? No. Neither bee is evil. They are simply a progression.

I was born a man, so I am able to do certain things no woman could ever do. Some of those are simply nature. Some of those are cultural. Women can do things I can never do. At this point in time what I have the ability to do is likely more than what they have the ability to do, making it unfair. But that does not mean that me doing these things makes me evil. I’m just doing what I am allowed to do.

There very well might be a cabal of evil men or women that is trying to keep the “power” with one gender or another. So what? A culture is so much more powerful and uncontrolled than any of its constituent parts. Don’t focus on those assholes. You do you and you preach it. Believe it. Teach it to the next generation. Don’t focus on hate. Don’t define yourself with the lines the previous generation drew up. Don’t fight the past or the present. Make the future. And for Deer God's sake, quit simplifying delightfully complex things. That is what anger and hatred does by the way, it makes you want to take enormously complex things and boil them down into something you can attack head on. You can't attack all of humanity head on. You do far more damage and good by steadfastly holding what you believe to be true and fighting for it. Not getting bogged down trying to ant-force a mountain into bending your way.

-Road Out-
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