Communism

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Re: Communism

Postby gisambards » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:34 pm

LiteralHipster wrote:I'll present you with a much better analogy to the USA: my own country. Long ago, Argentina was named simply Provincias Unidas del Sud (United Provinces of the South). Note that the structure is the exact same structure used in United States of America, since a province is almost exactly the same as a state, and "Sud" is not a specific name like Mexico, but merely the region where those provinces are located (like "America" in USA).

Now, if we had done the same thing the US did, we would have started using "the South" to refer to ourselves, snatching the word already in use to designate millions of people living below the Equator. We (or, rather, the people who lived here at the time) didn't. The country was referred by everyone, both inside and outside its frontiers, as simply "Provincias Unidas" until a better name came along.

The country preceding Argentina was more commonly known in English as Rio de la Plata - the country in question's more common name being Provincias Unidas del Río de la Plata (less frequently known as Provincias Unidas en Sud América, or de Sudamérica - I can't actually find an example of it being referred to as "Provincias Unidas del Sud"). If you said "United Provinces", people would have assumed you meant the United Provinces of Central America.
Equally, I suspect the reason no-one gave a shit about the name being vague and also easily referring to several other countries - both the "United Provinces" and the "of South America" parts - was because it was only the name used by the revolutionary government, and the country post-independence was known as the Argentine Republic.
Regardless, I think it's ridiculous to assume the early Argentinians decided to use "Provincias Unidas" to refer to their country specifically so as not to steal the identities of everyone else in South America.
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Re: Communism

Postby Learned Nand » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:37 pm

LiteralHipster wrote:Fourth, I'm not over-generalizing. People from the US being easily offended is a well-noted national phenomenon which puzzles some and is considered a serious problem by others. They are so prone to getting offended that when a racist shoots nine people in a church, they keep the racism and ban the symbols.

These links are all blog posts, none of which contain any data, and most of which contain no comparative analysis to other countries. I have no reason to trust the conclusions of these links, and even if I did, that wouldn't prove that Americans were more easily offended than people from other countries, and even if they were, that still wouldn't justify an application of that kind of prejudiced generalization to the people on this forum. There's really no reason for you to persist in this line of national origin based insult.

LiteralHipster wrote:
D-LOGAN wrote:
The truth is we don't need more innovation

I know I've made a show in regards to how horrifying I've found statements people've made on this yoke, but that right there, that takes the biscuit.
I mean, Good Lord! How opposed to not only human nature, but life itself could that be?

Aren't you exaggerating a bit? We can disagree on the existence of human nature (I think it doesn't exist) but life itself? There were whole centuries with little or no technological innovation and people still managed to live somehow. They even produced art.

During centuries with little to no technological innovation, hundreds of millions of people died unnecessarily. You may not currently need more innovation, but the significant fraction of people who die of cancer every year sure do.
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Re: Communism

Postby IamNotCreepy » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:42 pm

Per the link you yourself gave, it advised that not only is "American" the only accepted term for people from the United States, the term was in use before the country itself was even called the United States of America.

When you used the term "USans" you were trolling. You did it specifically to provoke a reaction, so I responded in kind.

I agree, we should limit it to another thread, but if you believe that, you should stop purposely using loaded terms like that just to be a turd.
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Re: Communism

Postby Crimson847 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:46 pm

Image

Oh well, I tried. Back to mostly ignoring this thread.
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"If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them; but the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
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Re: Communism

Postby LiteralHipster » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:59 pm

aviel wrote:These links are all blog posts

See what I mean? You didn't even open them. One of them is a link to a video of Obama speaking about safe spaces in college. Another links to The Atlantic. A third one links to Esquire. Please try to read first and then present your objections. It gets old.
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Re: Communism

Postby CarrieVS » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:07 pm

DashaBlade wrote:
LiteralHipster wrote:"USan" is just shorthand for United Statesian, a perfectly good, actually existing term


Then again, the Estados Unidos de Mexico may have some problems with the USA trying to say it's the only United States - and since they're right next door it might be a bad idea to piss them off too much before that wall gets built.


That's why I call them USAliens.
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Re: Communism

Postby Learned Nand » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:07 pm

Please excuse my slight exaggeration, Hipster; but I think this rather demonstrates my point. I had in fact opened and read or skimmed each of them for reference to relevant data, with the exception of the Obama video which I'd already seen before. I have lost count of how many times your presumption of ignorance on the part of the other person has actually been a misinterpretation of miscommunication or misunderstanding, but I'd hope it's been shown at this point that that presumption is not justified.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Communism

Postby LiteralHipster » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:13 pm

aviel wrote:Please excuse my slight exaggeration, Hipster; but I think this rather demonstrates my point. I had in fact opened and read or skimmed each of them for reference to relevant data, with the exception of the Obama video which I'd already seen before. I have lost count of how many times your presumption of ignorance on the part of the other person has actually been a misinterpretation of miscommunication or misunderstanding, but I'd hope it's been shown at this point that that presumption is not justified.

It's not a presumption of ignorance. It's an assertion based on the factual untruth of your sentence. Either you didn't open all the links or you opened them and misrepresented their contents; you lied either way.
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Re: Communism

Postby CarrieVS » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:19 pm

Is an honest misunderstanding or disagreement about what something means or how valid it is not possible, LH?
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Re: Communism

Postby Learned Nand » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:20 pm

Assuming I was lying -- which, obviously, is not the case -- then that could still mean I'd opened the links, in which case, your presumption of ignorance was stilled unjustified. However, those aren't the only options. I could, for example, have misunderstood the contents of the links. I may have been exaggerating with the intention that my statement would be interpreted as such (hint, it's this one). Or I could have been right and you might have been misunderstand the content of the links.

It's bad enough to assume that disagreement is always the result of the other person not knowing something. Assuming that disagreement is always the result of either the other person not knowing something or lying is no better. I'm again going to invite you to have an actual discussion of the issues rather than attacking the people in this thread personally.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Communism

Postby LiteralHipster » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:22 pm

CarrieVS wrote:Is an honest misunderstanding or disagreement about what something means or how valid it is not possible, LH?

Specifically the assertion that all the links I gave were blog posts is not subject to much doubt about what it means. Either they are all blog posts or they are not. It it's one and you say the other, you're lying. I don't think this is really debatable, is it?
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Re: Communism

Postby Learned Nand » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:24 pm

LiteralHipster wrote:Specifically the assertion that all the links I gave were blog posts is not subject to much doubt about what it means. Either they are all blog posts or they are not. It it's one and you say the other, you're lying. I don't think this is really debatable, is it?

I literally just listed several alternatives. For someone so quick to jump to the conclusion that other people aren't reading his posts, you sure seem eager to disregard the contents of mine.
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Last edited by Learned Nand on Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Communism

Postby Crimson847 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:25 pm

Aviel, you debate to learn new things and not to persuade people, correct?

What exactly do you expect to learn here, in a pissing contest over whether insulting people for being born in a certain location is a rational and sensible debate tactic? I'm not certain what your endgame is here.
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"If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them; but the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: Communism

Postby Learned Nand » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:26 pm

Crimson847 wrote:Aviel, you debate to learn new things and not to persuade people, correct?

What exactly do you expect to learn here, in a pissing contest over whether insulting people for being born in a certain location is a rational and sensible debate tactic? I'm not certain what your endgame is here.

The goal is that Hipster stops with the personal or national-origin-based attacks and then a discussion of the relevant issues can ensue. If that doesn't happen, then I agree that there's not much chance of learning something.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Communism

Postby LiteralHipster » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:32 pm

aviel wrote:
LiteralHipster wrote:Specifically the assertion that all the links I gave were blog posts is not subject to much doubt about what it means. Either they are all blog posts or they are not. It it's one and you say the other, you're lying. I don't think this is really debatable, is it?

I literally just listed several alternatives. For someone so quick to jump to the conclusion that other people aren't reading his posts, you sure seem eager to disregard the contents of mine.

All the alternatives you listed are hard to believe. Am I supposed to belive that you opened an article page in The Atlantic and thought it was a blog post, then opened a YouTube video and thought it was a blog post, then opened an Esquire article and thought it was a blog post? Oh, no, you weren't lying, you were exaggerating, and expecting people to believe that "All those are blog posts" doesn't actually mean "All those are blog posts". After all, why would they believe anything you say? Or maybe I misunderstood the context of the links, as you say. Of course all those are blog posts, how silly of me.

You know what? This is where I draw the line. Regular commenters making shit up and passing it as informed opinon is one thing, but when a moderator defends lying on a debate and people still upvote him, it's a pretty good sign that discussion is useless.

Goodbye everybody.
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