Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

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Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby OrangeEyebrows » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:24 am

I’ve been asked to open this topic as a place for members to discuss rape in an abstract way – What does the law say? What should the law say? What are we and what should we be teaching our young people?

Obviously this is a very emotive subject, so if you have been personally affected by sexual assault, you might wish to be aware that the subject matter could well be triggering.

There will be very strict guidelines in place for this topic.

1) No blaming the victim. We don’t care what a woman/man was wearing or what her/his sexual history was, and it won’t be part of this conversation. PLEASE DO NOT BLAME ANYONE FOR THEIR SEXUAL ASSAULT.
2) No hot-button words. No “slut shaming”, “white knighting”, etc. We’re all bright enough to get our points across without using buzz-words – if it’s worth saying, you can say it in your own words, and there’s too much baggage attached to these terms for them to be useful discussion tools.
3) Be kind and be respectful. But most of all, be kind. The person you’re talking to has their own history, which you don’t necessarily know.
4) No nastiness. You know it when you see it, and so do the mods.

That being said, as long as your intention is respectful and kind, this should be an illuminating discussion. Please feel free to come to me or another mod with any concerns at any time.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:16 am

I'm not sure the first two guidelines need exist, as the latter two forbid them. If we're to conduct a respectful debate, then you don't need to call out specific disrespectful arguments. That seems like you're rejecting them out of hand, which isn't (or shouldn't) be true. In a debate, any stance that a person can reasonably make should be allowed But because stances using hot-button words or blaming victims cannot reasonably made in practice, there's no need to create a rule against them: creating a rule against them would seem to admit they're valid arguments that you've rejected before allowing them to be considered.

Anyways, given my lack of experience with sex regardless of its consensuality, any opinion I utter from personal experience would be even more worthless than anecdotes usually are, so I'll try to make my opinions empirically justified, as always.

I think the only aspect of law regarding rape that people here are likely to find objectionable is law regarding statutory rape. Some states will criminalize it if a 19 year old has sex with his 16 year old girlfriend, and that's a problem. It seems to me there should be a general age of consent at 18, but before that, it shouldn't be a crime or misdemeanor to have sex with somebody who is of an appropriately close age. So 16 and 19 is fine, 15 and 16 is fine, 17 and 34 is not.

In terms of what we should be teaching our young people: on the face of it, suggesting that we teach young people not to rape seems like suggesting we teach young people not to murder and steal. They're such fundamental and nearly culturally universal aspects of morality that it seems that people understand that those things are immoral and that, if they do them, it's not due to lack of education, but rather malice.

However, the data indicate that there is tremendous dispute among young people as to what constitutes rape, or in what situations rape is "okay". I don't recall where these data were located (they were linked in IRC once, a while ago), but something like half of college students think rape is acceptable if the woman has actively turned the man on, and a surprising percentage felt that having sex with a person too drunk to consent did not constitute rape. As such, it does actually seem necessary to inform people what constitutes rape, which, to define it literally but perhaps not usefully, is sex without consent.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby NotCIAAgent » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:12 pm

Rape is a terrible crime. EVERYONE can agree on that. Even the most backwards Arabian sheikh agree that rape is bad.

The problem is the lack of consent (hah... no, wasn't funny) on what rape is, in fact.

Rape is to force someone to sex, as murder is to take a life. However, there are instances in which some consider murder acceptable (going from self defense to defense of propriety) while there are people who says murder is never acceptable. Same goes for rape.

Back to Saudi Arabia, because I fucking hate that country. In that quasi feudalistic (but definitively oligarch) country, wives (as children) are considered propriety of the husbands. Therefore, their consent doesn't matter for them there, because their husband's will is their will, and we have lots of situations which we consider rape, but they do not. However, forced sex with an unmarried woman, or the wife of other husband, is in fact considered rape and will be punished (unless, of course... rich people).

Women are in a pretty ugly situation there, but, of course... the lack of sexual (or general) liberty comes with some trade-offs (the society would have crumbled otherwise), but if they are worth it is very questionable.

Anyways, my point is: we will not get too far from our borders in our fight against rape unless we define some kind of universal guidelines of what rape is. Preferentially, one that can be easily understood by inhabitants of countries with a similar culture (regarding marriage) to Saudi Arabia (which I hate, and consider a shit hole).
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:58 pm

Unfortunately, America still has a good deal of work to do internally. Depending on what definition or survey you use, somewhere between 9% and 20% of women will be raped in their lifetime in America, many of them in college.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Cordslash » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:14 pm

I live in a country with one of the highest (if not the highest) incidences of rape in the world.
There are many theories as to why here and not in neighbouring countries with similar cultures and socio-economic conditions. Thing is we just don't know.

Recently a debate has sparked over the possible use of chemical castration on convicted rapists. Senior politicians and government officials are driving this debate. Now this is still a long way off from policy never mind legislation but people are loudly discussing it.

I myself think further studies are needed as to the efficacy of chemical castration before we can endorse it. There's also the thorny issue of whether it violates our Bill of Rights (proponents argue that it's painless, but of course human rights is about more than that).

As you can imagine such a proposal enjoys massive public support. Frankly we are at our wits' end in fighting the rape scourge.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby NotCIAAgent » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:37 pm

Well... as long it isn't permanent (some kind of treatment the convict must have at every 15 days or something to keep the castration, and being observed in the intervals, for example) and don't have collateral effects (permanent castration), doesn't seems too bad.

To be imprisoned is to have your liberty restrained. To be chemically castrated is to have your libido restrained. Both doesn't seems too much different, in my opinion.

Just be careful to not be too trigger happy with the shots there, and make sure it goes only to the ones proven guilty, or you guys might get in some trouble.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:56 pm

I don't know that chemical castration can be temporary, but I'm not at all familiar with the science around that. Regardless, I'm skeptical that that would make a significant dent in the number of rapes, if only because (assuming there are already harsh punishments in place for rape that are being enforced) I don't see why additional negative reinforcement would make much of a difference.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby sunglasses » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:11 pm

Vimes, I've read a bit regarding that issue in your country. From what I can find, and find in a number of more rural areas as well, is that there is an overall dis-value of women by said rapists. They often view women more as an object. Or, in some areas, men will think they can "rape women straight" if they think they are gay. Some men (wrongly) assume that women in certain dress or unchaperoned are prostitutes or wanting it.

The long and short is that there seems to be a huge issue in how they regard women. I'm not sure how to change it. Certainly, having tv programs which show a value on women would be helpful but I think it'd really needs to almost be a grassroots effort-to which I have no solutions except hope and pray that fathers and uncles will be good examples to their sons. Because that is where it starts. If someone hears a role model in their life remark on women being 'tramps' or 'teases,' it starts. When someone points to a female they consider uptight and says, "She needs a good lay to set her right." It starts. When they makes comments saying, "She shouldn't advertise that body and not expect something to happen." It starts. Even when they say things to their sons like, "Well when she says no, she really means yes-" the groundwork begins. When they call women sluts, when they make comments that a certain woman is his, when they claim that they were lead on by various women and that they really wanted it-and I think you all get the idea.

These are things I've heard growing up. America is no better for it, hence the huge instances of 'gray rape,' Aviel. Many don't consider someone drunk to be unable to consent, despite laws proving the contrary. Somewhere, some when, I guarantee you that they had a male role model in their life devalue women.

As for the stat rape laws, there are some states that have so called "Romeo and Juliet" clauses. I know the Pa has one where if you are 4 years or less older than the person of consent you are having consensual sex with, it's not a violation.

As for the consequences, many times they aren't that grave. Recently we've had judges-just in the states-reduce jury given sentences for men convicted of rape. One raped a 14 year old girl,one raped a group of young men to 'ungay' them. In the case of the 14 year old girl, the judge has been quoted as saying that she was "older than her chronological age." That's the mindset that needs to stop. Regardless of how she looked, the 30 some year old man was quite in control of his actions. I think that's what many forget. Or choose to forget. There's been a huge history of women being made out as jezebels and temptresses-and that idea carries forward. It's very, very sad.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:17 pm

I kind of have a problem with the whole "victim blaming" aversion. While I believe wholeheartedly that no person is EVER to blame for the decisions and behaviors of another, people are nonetheless responsible for their own personal safety. It's not possible (in my opinion) to completely absolve someone of that responsibility without stripping them of all the power and autonomy that come with said responsibility.

Let me try to put it into perspective. If someone stole my car and you were to ask me if I'd left the keys in it, everyone in the room wouldn't gasp and demand "how DARE you blame her for what happened!" Conversely, no one would even THINK to suggest that the car thief was somehow "less guilty" because I'd made their crime easier to commit. Why is rape any different?

This attitude becomes problematic when people refuse to consider the notion of rape prevention and dismiss it as "victim blaming." It is not. Sure, it would be MUCH more civilized if we could teach people not to rape instead of not to get raped, but come on. Have you seen humanity? By and large, we're a monstrous fucking species! I think that teaching everyone to do whatever the hell they want and expect nothing bad will happen to them is only going to get more people raped.

Now, when I talk about "rape prevention," I am NOT referring to anyone's clothes or personal deportment! It's been proven that rape happens to people of all dress and mannerism. What DOES have an effect upon the frequency of rape (or any crime, for that matter) is opportunity. We need to teach our young people not to put themselves in situations where someone can take advantage of the privacy and/or diminished capacity a rapist needs.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:05 pm

the difference, damiana, is that in the case of rape, people often confuse moral and causal responsibility, whereas that is not the case with other crimes. you are correct in stating that people should take appropriate measures to protect themselves, and that that does not imply moral responsibility on the part of the victims, but people often forget that specifically in the case of rape. the reason people react with hostility to suggestions that rape victims should take measures to protect themselves is not that they shouldn't take measures to protect themselves, but that people often say that implying moral responsibility for failing to protect themselves.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:10 pm

But, Diamana, one can't exactly prepare for everything ever. We can't just Cumberbatch- Sherlock every possible outcome. To prevent rape, one should probably take into account the motives of those who have raped. If it was a power thing, what made that person more power desperate than normal? If it's a case of culturally treating women as property, examine why such a mentality got ingrained within said culture. If one knows the motives, one can work to prevent such motives from arising.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby CarrieVS » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:14 pm

Teaching people to take precautions not to be harmed - whether it's precautions against rape or against being mugged or against having your identity stolen because you didn't know not to open attachments in emails claiming to be from your bank - is a Good Thing.

But it's a Good Thing because there are and will always be bad people out there, who will harm you if they get the opportunity. It's not because you're implicitly giving consent if you fail to take enough precautions to make it impossible for the person who happened to target you to succeed. It is always the case that the attacker shouldn't have harmed the victim, not that the victim shouldn't have done x, even if x might have prevented the attacker from being able to. (Apart from anything else, it was definitely in the attacker's power to prevent the attack, and only possibly in the victim's.) But that doesn't people shouldn't be encouraged not to do x.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Tablo » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:28 pm

OrangeEyebrows wrote:2) No hot-button words. No “slut shaming”, “white knighting”, etc. We’re all bright enough to get our points across without using buzz-words – if it’s worth saying, you can say it in your own words, and there’s too much baggage attached to these terms for them to be useful discussion tools.
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Does this rule mean words like whore warning and black paladining are okay? They are my own words but yet they are buzzwords.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby gregfrankenstein » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:57 pm

It took me far too long to realize what people mean by "rape culture". At first glance, it makes every male in the country sound like a group of bikers prowling the streets assaulting people 24/7. It's tough to realize however that a huge majority of what even the western world considers "sex" is blurry if not fully non-consensual. I like drunken dance moves as much as the next guy, but let's be real here; nightclubs mostly exist so people can be talked into one-night-stands, at a point where they're too plastered to consent to their own right hand. Hell, that's the most common dating advice. Go to bar! That's where the opposite sex is!

I'm glad we're finally starting to come to our senses as to what consent is, but we're still a pretty significant minority.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Kate » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:50 pm

I agree, Damiana, but I think there is a huge difference between saying "watch your drink, make sure you and your friends get home safely at night, if you see a girl who looks really out of it going home with a guy just ask her if she's okay," and saying "well what did you expect, dressed like that?"

The second one is victim-blaming, in my opinion. It's needless and places blame somewhere that it doesn't need to be. The first is an unfortunate consequence of living in the real world. I don't walk with my keys out ready to stab if need be or park under lights at night specifically because of rape, but because of All Bad Things that could happen. Rape's just one of them.

I think we're in agreement on that, if I'm not mistaken?

That ties right into education. I hear a lot, lately, about how "we need to teach boys how not to rape, not teach girls not to get raped!" and it angers me.

In my opinion, we need to teach everyone to protect themselves. We need to teach everyone to treat each other with dignity and respect.

That includes arming young adults with the knowledge of what rape is. That it can happen to anyone; not just girls. That it can be perpetuated by anyone; not just boys. That there are certain ways to keep yourself safer. That there are certain resources available if it happens to you. How to help a friend, if it happens to them. How to discourage attitudes of rape acceptance in their peers.
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