Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Tesseracts » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:57 pm

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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby sunglasses » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:41 pm

That man in your video was banned from campus after kicking a woman in the chest.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Grimstone » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:48 pm

sunglasses wrote:That man in your video was banned from campus after kicking a woman in the chest.


It's called free kicks, you commie!
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Grimstone » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:56 am

sunglasses wrote:Again, I know I'd prefer the discussion of rape vs coercion to go to the rape discussion thread...


Rape vs coercion? Rape involves coercion(the use of force or threats) or a partner unable to consent, what does rape vs coercion mean?

Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority, or against a person who is incapable of giving valid consent
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Last edited by Grimstone on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby sunglasses » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:24 am

I'm on mobile and not able to type as well as I would like so I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

I was referring to the discussion of forcible rape vs coercive rape vs sexual assault that appeared to be going on in the previous thread. While the fbi definition for a time only defined unwanted penetration, this left out male victims. I cannot remember if it has been updated or not.

However, and I'm not saying this is what occurred in graces case, there have been numerous cases of rape in verbal and emotional coercion was the primary tool used. In my exes case, sleep deprivation was used. Every time I would try to sleep I'd be awoken. I would beg for sleep. Sometimes I'd be up for over 24 hours before caving in to the demand for sex.

But apologies for not being more succint in what I meant in the other thread
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Grimstone » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:26 am

sunglasses wrote:However, and I'm not saying this is what occurred in graces case, there have been numerous cases of rape in verbal and emotional coercion was the primary tool used.


Yes, that would include threats and such which are definitely coercion.

sunglasses wrote:In my exes case, sleep deprivation was used. Every time I would try to sleep I'd be awoken. I would beg for sleep. Sometimes I'd be up for over 24 hours before caving in.


Umm, that sounds more like torture sunglasses(which again is definitely a form of coercion).

Edit: or maybe you all don't think threats and torture are coercion(and if you do what the hell are we arguing about?), I honestly don't know anymore.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Fun With Mr. Fudge » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:44 pm

Grimstone wrote:Umm, that sounds more like torture sunglasses(which again is definitely a form of coercion).

Edit: or maybe you all don't think threats and torture are coercion(and if you do what the hell are we arguing about?), I honestly don't know anymore.


Not to shift this to the Ansari discussion, but I think one of the problems that emerged in that thread is that people could have interpreted your words to mean you have: (1) a lax definition of consent, (2) a very narrow notion of coercion, or (3) both of those things. I'm not sure if that's accurate or if your intended points got lost during those exchanges.

I want to try to understand where you're coming from on this because I saw more than one way your arguments could have been interpreted, and I think you felt misunderstood. With regard to your discussion of Grace's feelings vs Ansari's actions, I thought you could have been saying there's a difference between feeling sexually violated and being sexually assaulted. Accordingly, what one feels wouldn't necessarily capture what the other person meant to do or actually did.

I also thought your emphasis on the definition of coercion (and related statements you made about them) could have been an attempt to say it's important to establish clear criteria for calling something sexual assault that aren't premised entirely on what a victim feels. I'm not saying anyone argued for a definition that relies only on feelings or that you thought that. But to me it seemed you may have thought that's what people were doing in Grace's case. Perhaps for you another criterion would be whether it was reasonable to expect an alleged perpetrator to know he/she was making the other person feel forced or uncomfortable during a given interaction. If that's what you were getting at then maybe it would explain your emphasis on "mixed signals."

Was I close to capturing what you wanted to say?. If not, how would you summarize your thoughts with regard to those points? Also, if you don't mind answering, where would you draw the line between coercion and pushiness/aggressiveness? If that's too general, then maybe we could use Grace and Ansari (or a similar scenario) as a basis for providing hypothetical examples.

I get that the previous discussion got emotional, so I hope I'm not fueling any negative feelings or associations by delving into this. It's not my intention to upset anyone. If it's better to drop it, I'll gladly do so.
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:47 pm

This isn't apropos anything anyone else has said so far, but I saw this video recommended to me on YouTube, and I think it might be relevant to the Ansari discussion, but thought it would be better linked here since it doesn't directly reference that event, and as Sunglasses pointed out in not so many words, "blood for the blood god, rape discussion for the rape thread". I have a love-hate relationship with Bill Maher's content, to be more specific I think he's a pompous dickhead, but I think here he makes a good point. To summarize the video, when people try to draw distinctions between harassment, assault, and rape, it's not because harassment and assault are okay, it's because it's important for the response to meet the infraction. They're all unacceptable, but it's not sexist or in support of rape culture to acknowledge the difference between exposing yourself to someone and sodomizing them, that even though they should both be met with scorn, one deserves more rancor than the other.

phpBB [video]
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Re: Rape - please read the guidelines for this discussion

Postby Grimstone » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:41 am

Fun With Mr. Fudge wrote:I think one of the problems that emerged in that thread is that people could have interpreted your words to mean you have: (1) a lax definition of consent


Unless society commits to a zero-tolerance policy where one must verbally issue a request for consent and likewise receive verbal approval each and every time before initiating any and all physical contact with another person then it's inevitable(I think) that there will sometimes be cases in which consent is murky.

(2) a very narrow notion of coercion


My notion of coercion seems to be the definition of coercion. Others appear to have their own that they haven't quite put into words but I get the impression they want a looser definition to encompass situations that could be resolved through explicit consent. The problem with this is that you can't legitimately consent if you're coerced/under duress so such a definition wouldn't make sense.

if you don't mind answering, where would you draw the line between coercion and pushiness/aggressiveness?


Although pushiness/aggressiveness can be part of coercion I don't think being pushy/aggressive automatically constitutes coercion. It depends on the severity and specifics but one line I would draw is this: If the person did explicitly consent in a given situation would their consent be considered voluntary? would their yes have been valid? If so I'm not sure it was coercion(though this doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't sexual assault or rape).
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