Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

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Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:02 pm

Well, I guess we're Gilead now. There is no other logic to social conservatism.
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Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby gisambards » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:27 pm

Deathclaw_Puncher wrote:Well, I guess we're Gilead now. There is no other logic to social conservatism.

The exaggeration is one thing, but there's no need to malign a perfectly legitimate political ideology. The actions of the Senate Republicans here have been despicable, but it was all for the sake of political expediency, not really a result of their ideology.
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Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:37 pm

How is it a perfectly legitimate social ideologically if it maligns women and minority groups?
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Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby gisambards » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:42 pm

Social conservatism is not inherently oppressive to anyone. It can be abused in such a way that it is, but so can any ideology - so can social liberalism.
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Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:51 pm

Social conservatism doesn't result in things like the Civil Rights Act or Obergefell v. Hodges.

Maybe this should be split into a loud noises thread or something.
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Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Crimson847 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:04 pm

Social progressivism did indeed give us the CRA and marriage equality. It also gave us eugenics, which contemporary social conservative institutions like the Church stood against. A general preference for tradition and what worked before over the new and untried will lead a person to a variety of different conclusions, some "good" and some "bad". It depends on what the tradition is and what the new hotness is.
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Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby cmsellers » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:37 am

gisambards wrote:Social conservatism is not inherently oppressive to anyone. It can be abused in such a way that it is, but so can any ideology - so can social liberalism.

Can you define "social conservatism"?

Because when I hear the term, I think of the use of religion to justify government action which A. legislates morality and B. enforces the existing social hierarchy. Basically, I picture the driving ideology of the American South from John Calhoun to Roy Moore, and similar strains in other societies such as Wahhabism. I can say categorically that I can think of no example where such an ideology has ever been a force for good.

However a principled resistance to social change and a preference for tradition, as Crimson defines it, definitely can be a force for good. I can respect Edmund Burke and William Buckley and recognize them as valuable contributors to the discussion of their day, but they did not derive their defense of tradition from old religious texts and did not instinctively seek government action to defend it: far more often they sought a repeal of government action. I would describe the ideology which mounts a principled defense of tradition as "conservative" rather than "socially conservative," because to me, social conservatism as an ideology requires both a religious dogma and a reflexive desire to enforce it via government action.
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Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Crimson847 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:53 am

cmsellers wrote:
gisambards wrote:Social conservatism is not inherently oppressive to anyone. It can be abused in such a way that it is, but so can any ideology - so can social liberalism.

Can you define "social conservatism"?

Because when I hear the term, I think of the use of religion to justify government action which A. legislates morality and B. enforces the existing social hierarchy. Basically, I picture the driving ideology of the American South from John Calhoun to Roy Moore, and similar strains in other societies such as Wahhabism. I can say categorically that I can think of no example where such an ideology has ever been a force for good.

However a principled resistance to social change and a preference for tradition, as Crimson defines it, definitely can be a force for good. I can respect Edmund Burke and William Buckley and recognize them as valuable contributors to the discussion of their day, but they did not derive their defense of tradition from old religious texts and did not instinctively seek government action to defend it: far more often they sought a repeal of government action. I would describe the ideology which mounts a principled defense of tradition as "conservative" rather than "socially conservative," because to me, social conservatism as an ideology requires both a religious dogma and a reflexive desire to enforce it via government action.


Personally I simply define "social conservatism" as conservatism (by your definition) applied to social policy and organization. Like any ideology people can build it on firm ground or epistemological sand, but I don't think mindless Bible-quoting is where all arguments against progressive social policy spring from, particularly when we get into thornier questions like abortion or giving kids sex change operations.
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Re: Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

Postby gisambards » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:56 am

cmsellers wrote:Can you define "social conservatism"?


I define it the same way Crimson has. What you describe as what you think of when you hear the term is a form social conservatism has sometimes taken, but it's hardly a definitive one. I don't think conservatism and religion are intrinsically linked, and actually I find very few people's political beliefs are guided solely by their religious beliefs, even if they claim that's the case. Further, I think actually adherents of most ideologies support some degree of legislation of morality based on their beliefs, and this is not always a bad thing. Further, enforcement of the existing social hierarchy can sometimes be the lesser of two evils.
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Re: Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

Postby cmsellers » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:28 am

gisambards wrote:Further, I think actually adherents of most ideologies support some degree of legislation of morality based on their beliefs, and this is not always a bad thing.

Not always, but I would say the overwhelming majority of the time. Also, I just realized that slavery pitted people trying to legislate morality based on their religious beliefs against people using their religious beliefs to justify the use of force in defense of a social hierarchy, and I only see the latter group as socially conservative because the former group were trying to effect a change never before seen in human society.

I would say that it seems like actual conservatism plays a role in my mental model of social conservatism as well, but I would also describe the consistent life ethic as both radical and socially conservative. So now I'm wondering if my definition isn't actually something like "people who support stuff that it is usually people I identify as socially conservative support," which is more of a prototype model than a definition.

gisambards wrote:Further, enforcement of the existing social hierarchy can sometimes be the lesser of two evils.

Could you give an example, please?
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Re: Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:39 am

I think we can all agree that social conservatism is evil, and the more evil a policy is the more social conservatismer it is.
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Re: Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

Postby Crimson847 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:34 am

A Combustible Lemon wrote:I think we can all agree that social conservatism is evil, and the more evil a policy is the more social conservatismer it is.


You're all heart, Lemon.
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Re: Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

Postby gisambards » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:26 am

cmsellers wrote:
gisambards wrote:Further, enforcement of the existing social hierarchy can sometimes be the lesser of two evils.

Could you give an example, please?

An immediate example is if the hierarchy is clearly going to be replaced with something worse - as bad as modern America can be, it's definitely not the worst it could be.
But more commonly, if the changes are very radical but ill thought-out, then I think there's a solid possibility that maintaining the status quo in the short-term will be better, to allow for a more orderly long-term transition.
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Re: Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:07 pm

A Combustible Lemon wrote:I think we can all agree that social conservatism is evil, and the more evil a policy is the more social conservatismer it is.


Thanks for trolling?
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Re: Split From Kavanaugh Thread: Social Conservatism

Postby cmsellers » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:39 pm

gisambards wrote:An immediate example is if the hierarchy is clearly going to be replaced with something worse - as bad as modern America can be, it's definitely not the worst it could be.
But more commonly, if the changes are very radical but ill thought-out, then I think there's a solid possibility that maintaining the status quo in the short-term will be better, to allow for a more orderly long-term transition.

So basically, the ancien regime is preferable to the Jacobins and the czar is preferable to the Bolsheviks?

However those and all the similar cases I can think of, it was the defenders of the SQ resisting moderate change that lead eventually to violent radicalism.
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