Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby satan_n_stuff » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:02 pm

DamianaRaven wrote:
Cpt._Funkotron wrote:I completely believe that it was the worst thing to happen to many people it happened to...


So do I, but there's a difference between "the worst thing that ever happened to me" and "the worst thing you could possibly do to me." In fact, I'd wager the two are very rarely one and the same.

It's never the same. A sufficiently creative mind can always come up with something worse.
Yes even worse than that.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:06 pm

George Carlin had a droll little "plus a headache" bit where no matter what you're going through, it can always be made worse with a headache. Got a headache? Here's another one in a whole different part of your head!
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Krashlia » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:24 pm

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

This was the article that the controversy sprang from, by the way.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby cmsellers » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:36 pm

FaceTheCitizen wrote:
Is it complicated to say "No" to men?


Girls say no to me all the time =(

I get the joke, but do they actually say "no"?

Or do they say "I've got a friend coming in from out of state," "Maybe another time," or "I've got a big project due"? Or do they say nothing and just ghost you?

Because my experience is that I've only had a girl tell me directly that she wasn't interested in me once, when I asked her explicitly, and she was a socially awkward homeschooled kid. Every other time I've asked a girl out she's made sure to blow me off without actually saying she's not interested, on the assumption that I would eventually get the hint.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:46 pm

For whatever it's worth, most of those excuses weren't borne of fear or any desire to manipulate you. It really is genuinely difficult to say "no" outright to a man you like and/or respect. Rejection is painful - pretty much everyone knows that - and it's not at all easy to hurt somebody who is flattering you with their courtly interest.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Anglerphobe » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:38 am

I've certainly known women to be reluctant to do things that will make them seem (or feel) high-and-mighty, such as brushing a guy off in what they would see as a heartless and unsympathetic way. An aloof disregard for the feelings of the poor bastard, whether perceived or actual, is something they really don't want to give off.
There is also the fact that some men tend to pussyfoot their way around the issue on their end, so no one gets the opportunity to ask a direct question or give a direct response unless they force it, which complicates/is further complicated by the first point.
Personally, I think chameleons have the best system. It would be simple, clear, and unmistakable that consent was or was not given or sought if we could change our colour to communicate that information. We backed the wrong evolutionary horse with this vague, fickle business of spoken language.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Krashlia » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:24 am

(looks up at latest comments)
1: Women lack the courage to refuse people and make them feel bad or else they'll think they're bad people and everyone will think they're bad so just give people what they want for approval.
2: Men don't know what women want but know what they want but don't want to give a bad impression while trying to get what they want in ways that don't normally lead to it because it looks bad if they actually ask for it
conclusions:
(smh)
Confirming what I always knew: The majority of the human race are a lot of overly polite wussies, who'll do anything, and I mean *anything*, to spare "feewings", avoid a bad reputation, and feel good about themselves, even though they know damn well it'll make matters worse if they go through with what they're doing.

You weaklings make me sick.

(Scoffs, storms off)

(sheepishly comes back)... I was just being silly guys!
(nervous laugh)
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby IamNotCreepy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:28 am

cmsellers wrote:
FaceTheCitizen wrote:
Is it complicated to say "No" to men?


Girls say no to me all the time =(

I get the joke, but do they actually say "no"?

Or do they say "I've got a friend coming in from out of state," "Maybe another time," or "I've got a big project due"? Or do they say nothing and just ghost you?

Because my experience is that I've only had a girl tell me directly that she wasn't interested in me once, when I asked her explicitly, and she was a socially awkward homeschooled kid. Every other time I've asked a girl out she's made sure to blow me off without actually saying she's not interested, on the assumption that I would eventually get the hint.


When I get accosted in the parking lot by someone with a sob story about how they just got out of the hospital ("I have the discharge papers here to prove it!") and their car broke down and they just need some money for the bus to get home, I don't tell them that I don't believe their story, or that I think they're going to spend any money I give them on drugs, or that I just hate poor people. I tell them I don't have any cash on me.

I know I hate being put on the spot like that, and I'd rather give a little white lie that most efficiently ends the conversation rather than get dragged further into the awkward situation. It's one of those little lies all of society uses and is kind of like an unspoken agreement to drop it.

Directly telling someone you're not interested is awkward for both parties, and can actually invite further attempts: "Oh come on, give me a chance. You'll like me once you get to know me." Telling the little white lie can help both parties keep their pride.

Unless, of course, the person on the receiving end doesn't pick up what the other person is putting down. Then it gets more awkward, and that is when being direct is useful.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Irishjava » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:07 pm

It can be difficult for some people to say "no" to just about anyone that they like. The most common type of sexual assault is not one in which you are pushing off a repugnant slob. It's where someone you like pushes the envelope of what you're comfortable with, needling through polite refusals or taking silence as consent. Positive, enthusiastic consent is the standard and is REALLY easy to obtain when someone is into something. It can be complicated figuring out what exactly needs to be said in long-term relationships, but for 1st dates? You should take pains to be keyed into how the other person is feeling, and you should get verbal confirmation before trying something new. "Yes" should be the only way to start something, "No" should not be the only way to stop something.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Grimstone » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:24 am

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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby cmsellers » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:36 am

Grimstone wrote:
Spoiler: show
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I've seen that before and what's your point?
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Grimstone » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:56 am

cmsellers wrote:I've seen that before and what's your point?


It has to do with her ability to say no? She obviously feels like she was exploited or pressured somehow into agreeing to do the nude scenes for James Franco's movies.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby cmsellers » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:14 am

Grimstone wrote:It has to do with her ability to say no? She obviously feels like she was exploited or pressured somehow into agreeing to do the nude scenes for James Franco's movies.

Getting naked for a job is an entirely different matter than sexual assault.

Many people, probably most, work jobs they'd rather not to pay the bills. I'd feel much more violated at a customer service job being a human punching bag than I would doing a nude scene in film, and people don't take customer service jobs to pursue their dream of becoming actors.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:37 am

cmsellers wrote:
Grimstone wrote:It has to do with her ability to say no? She obviously feels like she was exploited or pressured somehow into agreeing to do the nude scenes for James Franco's movies.

Getting naked for a job is an entirely different matter than sexual assault.

Many people, probably most, work jobs they'd rather not to pay the bills. I'd feel much more violated at a customer service job being a human punching bag than I would doing a nude scene in film, and people don't take customer service jobs to pursue their dream of becoming actors.


This is the kind of person that argues that all professional porn is rape because the actors and actresses need money to afford food and housing, and thus they were coerced into doing sexual acts with the threat of poverty.

I mean the thing is, this is a totally valid criticism of any wage labor. It's the Marxist perspective. A valuable employee is one who produces more wealth through their efforts than it costs to hire them. This means that the employer gets to enjoy to fruits of this excess labor for no other reason than they possessed the necessary startup capital, a one-time lump sum in exchange for a theoretically eternal revenue source. The employee generally doesn't have a choice to work for someone or not, because if they don't, they run out of money and then starve to death out in the freezing cold. Ergo, the wage laborer is forced through threat of starvation to produce excess wealth for the employer.

Thus, all wage labor is coercive, and tantamount to slavery or serfdom, from the Marxist perspective.

Thing is though, the only way to overturn struggling actresses getting paid scale to whip their mammaries out on camera is to either ban all nudity scenes in media, or lead a glorious popular revolt in order to seize the means of production.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Krashlia » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:42 pm

No need to fear ma'am. These boobies are in the hands of the people, now.


But, more seriously, just how Marxist is it to say that, porn is not often peoples first choice and the industry is distasteful because of it? Like, i don't need to want the people to have porn money.
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