Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Grimstone » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:04 am

aviel wrote:
iMURDAu wrote:If she was terrified once the behavior starts then it's time to get out asap, contact the police, do something.

Unless you're scared to leave. In this particular scenario, every time Grace moved away from Ansari, he followed her very closely.

And what obligation is on the party seeking consent?

To obtain consent before initiating sexual activity. You don't wait for a clear signal to quit before you stop. You wait for a clear signal of consent before you start.


Not rejecting a person's advances doesn't constitute consent, going along with a person's advances doesn't necessarily constitute consent, even a verbal yes may not constitute consent, so what constitutes consent?
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby iMURDAu » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:26 am

I don't mean to question bomb you avi but I was writing this when Grimstone posted.

How would one go about getting consent to begin sexual activity? Spontaneity is a thing. Is it before the first kiss? Is it before clothes comes off? Is a gentle back rub the beginning of sexual activity if sex happens afterwards? At what point does consent need to happen then?

In the case of Ansari, yeah she should have left. She did end up leaving. Not everyone is a rapist. Some men aren't well equipped to grasp subtlety. We don't always pick up verbal cues that can be left open to interpretation. I don't know what was said between Aziz and Grace, so I can't really comment about their communication.

I do think these two should have gone on a idk date. Like eat something and chat for a while. He obviously wanted to hook up and she was oblivious to that until she got there.

EDIT: Okay seems they went out to eat and "left early" whatever that means. That phrase infers a lot. As in it was obvious what he was up to and she should've known. But I don't know if that's why they left, they're the only ones who know that. I'm not trying to defend Aziz Ansari because Parks and Rec isn't coming back with new episodes so he's of no use to me at this time.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:43 am

Grimstone wrote:Not rejecting a person's advances doesn't constitute consent, going along with a person's advances doesn't necessarily constitute consent, even a verbal yes may not constitute consent, so what constitutes consent?


I'm a little confused by your question. Presumably, we agree that consent is an essential component of any sexual encounter. Even if the boundaries are sometimes unclear, that doesn't diminish its importance.

Additionally, this discussion hasn't taken place at the boundaries. The mere absence of protest is unambiguously insufficient to constitute consent. If you want to have a separate discussion about what kinds of behavior can constitute affirmative consent, then I think that could be a very valuable discussion. But it's beside the point I'm making here, which is that consent requires more than the mere absence of objection. It has to be given willingly, not assumed by default.

iMURDAu wrote:How would one go about getting consent to begin sexual activity? Spontaneity is a thing. Is it before the first kiss? Is it before clothes comes off? Is a gentle back rub the beginning of sexual activity if sex happens afterwards? At what point does consent need to happen then?

Like I said to Grimstone, I think that's a separate discussion. To give a little more detail, I think it's going to depend a lot on your prior relationship with the other person. But of all the ways you could choose to begin sexual activity, one way that you absolutely can't do it is to assume consent by default, and then proceed on that assumption until it's definitively proven false.

Some men aren't well equipped to grasp subtlety. We don't always pick up verbal cues that can be left open to interpretation.

I have Asperger's syndrome. I've gotten better at dealing with it over the years, but it still means that I have particular difficulty understanding social cues. I often can't determine a person's feelings or intent unless they use unambiguous language to express it. I nevertheless avoid raping people, because I don't rely on my interpretation of subtle cues to infer consent. I wait until it is given expressly and clearly.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Kate » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:19 am

Absolutely going to second the idea that you can feel safe with someone until you are in a vulnerable position with them. And then it's too late. Even if you've known someone for a long time, they can suddenly reveal a darker side to themselves when they think they're safe to do so. Even accidentally; for some guys, it's letting their walls down because they are being vulnerable with you. For example, I once dated a guy who didn't express to me until we'd known each other awhile and were alone that he had powerful revenge fantasies and often thought about harming people who had crossed him, and then listed offenses that seemed kind of minor to me like a friend in high school making fun of his haircut. He had an entire thing planned out where he tied the girl to a chair, scared her, then buzzed her hair off.

Like...I get it. He was opening up to me. But we were alone together in his dorm room drinking and studying and had been getting towards a budding romance. We'd gone out on several dates in public and spent a lot of time together and I thought he was nice and funny and smart and I wanted to spend more time with him. And it died right there for me, but not for him. He had no idea how frightening it is to tell someone, "I really want to take revenge on people who cross me in small ways. Well, let's enter deeper into a relationship together! Surely this can't end in tears!" Nothing bad happened. But I was definitely scared. And if he'd pressed for sex after that and kept pressing, I would've said yes eventually just to not be the subject of his next revenge fantasy, especially since there was no actual indication whether he intended to keep it at fantasies. I'm sure he never would've actually hurt anyone, now, from a distance. But I wasn't at all confident about that at the time. It turned into a calculation of the best way to get away without bruising his ego and getting him mad at me for rejecting him.

I think this thread is fascinating and illustrates a real difference between how some men and women see the world and dating situations. I agree with Marcuse that in this society, we're prepared to expect that casual sex is okay and the norm, but ill-prepared to handle that well. It's very easy to give and received mixed signals in an environment where it is both expected that one-night stands with near-strangers can be desirable and that consent is king. I've said for years that I think it is possible for sexual assault to be accidental, and this is what I mean.

Another thing, and I know this is a book already, is that if women never went on dates unless there was nothing in the back of our minds saying something bad might happen, men would be SOL because a good chunk of us would stay in with our toy collections. In an established relationship you can trust that at a certain point, but how do you get there? There is always the chance that something bad could happen or someone could turn out to be untrustworthy and in order to get to a place where you can figure out if they are or not, you're going to have to have an instance where you are alone with them before you are 100% confident. 50% confident maybe. 90% confident even. But there has to be a point where you take a leap of faith that they aren't going to be a jerk once they're alone with you. It's not like the majority of assaults are committed by strangers, either, and many women are well aware of that.

It doesn't really help when the response to our legitimate fears is, "Well you shouldn't go into situations where you don't trust someone."

I want to point out something that a lot of people seem to skim over about the Aziz Ansari thing- if her account is accurate, she did say no. It was well into the evening, but she said, "After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this."

And after that was when they got their clothes on, went back to the couch to watch Seinfeld, and then he began trying to kiss her and get her pants off again.

After she said no, and that she wasn't going to do this.

That goes beyond nonverbal cues and sending mixed signals. Consent can be withdrawn at any point. It doesn't matter if you've been having an orgy up until 2:35 am, if at 2:36 am you say "Okay I'm done," then someone can't just decide to take your pants off because at 2:34 am you were good to go. It doesn't make the events at 2:34 wrong retroactively. But from 2:36 on, you don't get to have sex with that person anymore.

And it's disturbing to see an explicit "no" treated as if it is not a no. And it illustrates why a lot of women don't believe their "no" will even be respected. She was dealing with a self-identified feminist who wrote a book on modern relationships and touted respect for women. She probably had a false sense of security that he understood affirmative consent and wasn't going to pressure her for sex. I understand why she was shocked and thrown off guard. If someone who talks like that can't respect her when she says she doesn't want to feel pressured and when she outright says "no" then that is sad. If her account is accurate (and that's a big if), it is outrageously hypocritical that he wore a #MeToo pin to anything. People say he's not a big guy, but he's a famous guy. He doesn't need to be physically intimidating to be intimidating and have the power to screw her over.

So is it complicated to say no? Sure can be. Doesn't mean it's always sexual assault, doesn't mean women should ever rely on verbal cues to communicate how they feel and think, but it can definitely feel impossible to say "no" safely. Is that any individual man's fault, or even men as a whole? I don't think so. I think our culture is simultaneously very keen on the idea that sexual liberation is good while not being very clear about what that really entails to be safe and for people to feel safe beyond "get tested, wear a rubber."
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:50 am

I take strong umbrage to the repeated suggestion that rape is "the worst thing that can happen to a woman." I'd choose at least a dozen vicious rapes over seeing one of my kids so much as lose a limb. (Hell, I'd choose a whole sackful of rape over the loss of my own limbs!) For the record, the death of her child is the worst thing that can happen to any woman. I'd let myself be literally raped to death if it would save Sonja or Rachel's life somehow and since I'm sure at least a few most mothers would agree with that sentiment, it can't be accurately said that rape is "the most horrifying thing you can do to a woman."

I think this notion is toxic because it places sexuality as the most valuable element of a woman's life. It's not. There are things and people and concepts that I prize above my sexual sanctity.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Kivutar » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:22 am

DamianaRaven wrote:I think this notion is toxic because it places sexuality as the most valuable element of a woman's life. It's not. There are things and people and concepts that I prize above my sexual sanctity.


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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:28 am

There's an Op-ed in the New York Times right now that plays off of Margaret Atwood's recent remarks to make the point that the interpretation of consent in which it s only given when a woman gives it emphatically and enthusiasticaly, infantilizes women. It concludes that instead of dragging a comedian through the mud for being a knucklehead, we ought to work on furthering an environment where women are empowered and encouraged to be vocal about what they want. I think it merits discussion, at least. (EDITED: for Clarity)


Beyond that, I will respectfully decline to touch the politics of sexual consent with a 10-ft pole.

I take strong umbrage to the repeated suggestion that rape is "the worst thing that can happen to a woman." I'd choose at least a dozen vicious rapes over seeing one of my kids so much as lose a limb. (Hell, I'd choose a whole sackful of rape over the loss of my own limbs!) For the record, the death of her child is the worst thing that can happen to any woman. I'd let myself be literally raped to death if it would save Sonja or Rachel's life somehow and since I'm sure at least a few most mothers would agree with that sentiment, it can't be accurately said that rape is "the most horrifying thing you can do to a woman."

I think this notion is toxic because it places sexuality as the most valuable element of a woman's life. It's not. There are things and people and concepts that I prize above my sexual sanctity.


I completely believe that it was the worst thing to happen to many people it happened to (those who hadn't also been set on fire or hurled in a giant mincer or something, or just died in general), but I share your sentiment that there seems to be an almost puritanical fixation on sexual assault when many people don't seem to bat an eye at other kinds of assault, or even murder in some cases.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:37 am

Cpt._Funkotron wrote:There's an Op-ed in the New York Times right now that echoes Margaret Atwood's recent remarks that the interpretation of consent in which it s only given when a woman gives it emphatically and enthusiasticaly, infantilizes women.

That argument attacks a strawman. We're talking about situations in which consent wasn't given at all. Neither enthusiastically nor reluctantly. In the Ansari case, the woman even expressly told him "no".

I think it's also a strawman to talk about whether this standard infantilizes women, because nobody is advocating applying a requirement for affirmative consent only to women. Any person, regardless of gender, should seek consent before engaging in sexual activity.

Instead of dragging a comedian through the mud for being a knucklehead, we ought to work on furthering an environment where women are empowered and encouraged to be vocal about what they want.

This is an odd false dichotomy. I think everyone would agree here that women should be empowered to say what they do or do not want (although, as has been pointed out, they often don't have that power for reasons that aren't their fault). It is also important that people not presume consent just because they didn't notice any cues indicating reluctance. We can have both. But the situation precipitating this discussion was a problem is because of the latter issue, not the former.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby SandTea » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:50 am

aviel wrote:The mere absence of protest is unambiguously insufficient to constitute consent. If you want to have a separate discussion about what kinds of behavior can constitute affirmative consent, then I think that could be a very valuable discussion. But it's beside the point I'm making here, which is that consent requires more than the mere absence of objection. It has to be given willingly, not assumed by default.


Like I said to Grimstone, I think that's a separate discussion. To give a little more detail, I think it's going to depend a lot on your prior relationship with the other person. But of all the ways you could choose to begin sexual activity, one way that you absolutely can't do it is to assume consent by default, and then proceed on that assumption until it's definitively proven false.


This is certainty an applicable thing to discuss here and if I need to change the title to reflect that, let me know and I'm open to suggestions for a new title.

Kates comment was a great example of the information I was asking about.

I have once been thanked for accepting a "no" during foreplay and it was confusing to me that she felt that that was something to offer thanks for and then I hear about these situations and it reminds me of that night. It was a 'one night stand' so I can understand better now how she might have felt.

Would it be offensive to try to understand better by comparing these situations to drug deals? I know I can't completely grasp the females side but I know if I ask for a bunch of drugs then say "no" I could be in danger from the dealer and his friends if I decided against buying at some point. Would that be anywhere similar or is that just what an asshole would say? I'm just trying to better understand so apologies if "asshole" is the case.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby AboveGL » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 am

I agree with Kate 100% and this on particular stands out:

It doesn't really help when the response to our legitimate fears is, "Well you shouldn't go into situations where you don't trust someone."


Just quoting for emphasis.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Kate » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:33 am

I would say that's pretty fair for a situation where initially, interest was expressed and consent seemed to be forthcoming.

Unrealistic and potentially triggering scenario below:

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It's kind of like... you're friends with George. You like George, a lot. You never really think about how he's a foot taller than you and proportionately heavier, because why do you care? That doesn't really matter for your friendship. He was in your history class and every now and then you still meet up for a beer, and it's always fun. One day, you're hanging out at his place, playing video games. You made this plan to come over and blast some zombies together and afterwards he's going to take you to the gun range to shoot some of his real guns (it's a hobby of his) and that's what you're doing. Again, it's fun. First he shows you his favorite handgun, in its case, then locks it up for safety. It's kind of cool, maybe you aren't really into them, but hey he seems to be one of the good gun owners who takes precautions and it is kind of neat. There's cold beer, snacks, good company, it's great. And then he starts talking to you about how he's always wanted to try something crazy.

"Like rob a bank?"

"Nah. Not that crazy." He stops and keeps playing in silence for awhile. The silence gets to you and you press on. And finally, finally he says, "I've always wanted to know what it's like to be with a man."

You laugh it off, but his face flushes and you can tell he's a little upset. You try to be more sensitive.

"Really?"

"Yeah. Yeah, haven't you?" No. Maybe? Man. Your friendship is not ready for this kind of question.

"Well sure, everyone has I guess," you say, not wanting to hurt his feelings.

"Well I was thinking," he says, standing up. And suddenly, you are very aware that he is between you and the door. You think back to where he is keeping his gun. Is it near him? Are you sure he stores it unloaded? Come to think of it, you are fairly sure it's not his only gun. Where does he keep the others?

"I've got some weed. We can ditch the gun range and just have some fun."

"Aw, man, I don't really think I'm up for that." He's still blocking the door. He frowns but shrugs and sits back down. You stand up, but he matches you.

"Need anything?" He moves towards you.

"I was just going to grab a beer," you mumble.

"I'll get it," he offers. The fridge is between him and the door, so you can't just slip out. He returns and you take it, awkwardly.

A few minutes later, you try to stand again and again he matches you.

"Another beer?"

"Look," you decide to be direct. "I just need to get going."

"Is it what I said before?" He looks hurt and angry. "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable. Look, let's just pretend I didn't ever say anything, please. We had a good thing going and I said a stupid thing."

You relax. He gets it. You laugh and say sure, and get back to shooting zombies.

A few minutes later, he says, "But if you ever wanted to...I mean I could do all the work. You could just pretend I was a woman and I could maybe just su..." He looks at you, trying to judge your reactions.

You stand up, quickly, and go to leave, but he physically blocks you. "You don't need to go, I was just messing with you," he says, kind of desperate and kind of annoyed. "Look I set a whole day aside for us, it's not fair for you to just walk out."

"I'm really uncomfortable." You try to push past to go to the door but he matches your steps again and he is clearly agitated. You look around wildly and don't see the gun case; did he grab it when he went to get you a beer? You'd been watching the door more closely than him, trying to figure out if you could leave.





Obviously. This is not a very realistic scenario. And it involves weapons and women aren't often faced with weapons but we are often physically outmatched to such a degree that there may as well be weapons. I don't know if I can really convey what it is like to go through life feeling vaguely like prey. Being so used to it that you forget until something happens that reminds you how vulnerable you are. It doesn't have to be an overt threat to trigger fight, flight, or freeze. I feel like a lot of men I know spend time thinking of how they could physically fight their way out of danger. A lot of women spend time thinking about how they can avoid it or flee, because fighting often isn't realistic.

I don't think it's any given man's fault that a lot of us feel this way or even just men, period. I honestly think part of it is how often we are told to be scared and that women can't ____. This incident has been at once fascinating and also repulsive for me because on the one hand it illustrates why we need to talk about rape culture and on the other it shows the dangers of telling people that they might be raped on any given date and that rapists can turn violent when rejected. Those things are true, but the constant reminders contribute to that feeling of being prey.

And I mean, rape is awful. Having sex when you don't want to, whether because you are raped or because you decide it is the practical response to a situation, is awful. But it is better than being killed. You come out of it alive, usually. So if I am trying to decide between violence that hurts mentally or both mentally and physically, I will mitigate the damage. I have heard from male friends that they would rather be killed than raped and I wonder if that plays into the gulf of understanding; do a lot of men feel that way? Do they think women mostly feel that way? Because it'd certainly make it harder to understand why a woman might go along with sex she doesn't want rather than risk being beaten and/or killed.

I don't want to give the impression that I think men never feel like this, this pervasive fear and vulnerability, or like women walk around petrified all the time. I'm just trying to get at what seem to be some differences in how different people experience the world such that one person can not realize a situation is threatening and another can be afraid and feel unable to get out of it in a more direct way.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:57 pm

Cpt._Funkotron wrote:I completely believe that it was the worst thing to happen to many people it happened to...


So do I, but there's a difference between "the worst thing that ever happened to me" and "the worst thing you could possibly do to me." In fact, I'd wager the two are very rarely one and the same.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby blehblah » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:43 pm

Cpt._Funkotron wrote:There's an Op-ed in the New York Times right now that echoes Margaret Atwood's recent remarks that the interpretation of consent in which it s only given when a woman gives it emphatically and enthusiasticaly, infantilizes women. Instead of dragging a comedian through the mud for being a knucklehead, we ought to work on furthering an environment where women are empowered and encouraged to be vocal about what they want. I think it merits discussion, at least.

Beyond that, I will respectfully decline to touch the politics of sexual consent with a 10-ft pole.


I am going to not entirely agree or disagree, because the pendulum is swinging vigorously, and I'd rather see what time it is than get in the way. I know where I stand, and it's in a place where people are - of all things - nice to one another.

That said...

Here is a link to Atwood's essay: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... e37591823/

The NYT Op-Ed does not echo Atwood's remarks.

Atwood's essay is worth a close read.
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:23 pm

...
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Re: Is it complicated to say "No" to men?

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:36 pm

blehblah wrote:
Cpt._Funkotron wrote:[url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/opinion/aziz-ansari-babe-sexual-harassment.html?_r=0]
The NYT Op-Ed does not echo Atwood's remarks.


Perhaps I should have put it as "Quotes and plays off of Atwood's remarks to make the point" to avoid making a judgement as to its accuracy to what Atwood meant. I didn't word that comment as well as I could have, I've edited it to better reflect what I was trying to say.

DamianaRaven wrote:
Cpt._Funkotron wrote:I completely believe that it was the worst thing to happen to many people it happened to...


So do I, but there's a difference between "the worst thing that ever happened to me" and "the worst thing you could possibly do to me." In fact, I'd wager the two are very rarely one and the same.


Agreed.
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