Minor rights

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Minor rights

Postby DoglovingJim » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:27 am

BROWNRECLUSE wrote:I don't want that kind of cringe infecting my phone or laptop, nor would I want you to suffer as well.
Like Eve I just had to taste the forbidden fruit, and so it's an actual article.



EDIT:
Child labor laws led me deep into the world of black markets, bringing me to what became an accumulated 8 years of nonstop violence, crippling paranoia, and the complete chaos associated with the illicit drug trade and gang culture. I understand that my involvement in this game was my own choice, but I needed money, and there's no legal way for children to earn a viable income, or at least none that I knew of.

I heard of this issue before, and because of that I blame it completely on the prime minister of Malaysia.



Edit: This thread has been split from idiots.
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Re: The following people are dumb: idiots on the internet

Postby cmsellers » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:10 am

So I read that article and basically the argument is "the legal category of 'minor' shouldn't exist, my life was ruined because of it." I can empathize since I have a similar attitude towards public schools, for similar reasons. However my experience doesn't mean I think we shouldn't offer free education. On a similar note, the category of 'minor' exists to protect minors. The fact that it can fail horribly and even backfire is a problem, but I'm not sure "abolish the category of 'minor'" is the solution.

The big issue is that he had abusive parents which society did nothing about, because society defers too heavily to parental authority. That's something I've commented on before. He was also sent to an institution which shouldn't have been legal, and when he ran away from home he was unable to get a roof over his head because minors can't sign contracts.

There I think that there actually is a point. If we can charge minors younger than teens as adults for serious crimes (though I'm a bit skeptical of that practice for people younger than 16), I feel like it should be easier to become an emancipated minor. If I had my way it would be possible for minors to do most things adults can do as young as twelve, in certain circumstances. Or possibly no age limit, just a maturity test. If I had my way the voting age would be lowered to twelve. (Yes I know, it's a terrible idea and you had no idea about politics when you were twelve, I've heard this since I started advocating it at thirteen.)

However I still wouldn't say a twelve-year-old, even an incredibly precocious one, should be legally allowed consent to sex with an adult. Now maybe it's conceivable that somewhere there's a pre-teen who is capable of making informed, adult decisions about sex. Maybe. Yet seems to me like there's little benefit to designing the law around those hypothetical extreme edge cases, and I can see a whole lot of downside, given how often underage rape victims are blamed even now when it's bright-line illegal.
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Re: The following people are dumb: idiots on the internet

Postby DoglovingJim » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:29 am

cmsellers wrote:There I think that there actually is a point. If we can charge minors younger than teens as adults for serious crimes (though I'm a bit skeptical of that practice for people younger than 16), I feel like it should be easier to become an emancipated minor. If I had my way it would be possible for minors to do most things adults can do as young as twelve, in certain circumstances. Or possibly no age limit, just a maturity test. If I had my way the voting age would be lowered to twelve. (Yes I know, it's a terrible idea and you had no idea about politics when you were twelve, I've heard this since I started advocating it at thirteen.)


I think that this might make an interesting thread to see different perceptions among our members, for example I disagreed with basically all of it. From the idea that the voting age should be lowered to 12, to a "maturity test", and also with your skepticism that those younger than 16 perhaps shouldn't be charged the same as adults.

I'm not sure if there was anything I did agree with in terms on the blokes article, I don't like this whole agenda of degrading the family unit and giving parental authority to the state (or "society").
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Last edited by DoglovingJim on Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The following people are dumb: idiots on the internet

Postby cmsellers » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:31 am

To be clear, I want to lower the voting age to a flat twelve, I don't want to put conditions on voting.

For maturity tests I'm talking about things like minor emancipation, being able to work before sixteen, and being able to sign certain contracts before eighteen as an unemancipated minor.
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Re: The following people are dumb: idiots on the internet

Postby DoglovingJim » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:36 am

cmsellers wrote:To be clear, I want to lower the voting age to a flat twelve, I don't want to put conditions on voting.

For maturity tests I'm talking about things like minor emancipation, being able to work before sixteen, and being able to sign certain contracts before eighteen as an unemancipated minor.

Ah, so you're not saying that you have to pass a "maturity test" in order to be allowed to vote. That the maturity test is more akin to finding work (but how would that help our unemployment levels, since that means having a whole new workforce which can be hired for less money [junior wage]).

Regardless I disagree with lowering the age to vote down to 12, in my opinion it should remain 18 if not be higher.
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Re: The following people are dumb: idiots on the internet

Postby cmsellers » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:53 am

DoglovingJim wrote:Regardless I disagree with lowering the age to vote down to 12, in my opinion it should remain 18 if not be higher.

That makes you...

...pretty much like everyone I have ever discussed this with.
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Re: The following people are dumb: idiots on the internet

Postby DoglovingJim » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:03 am

cmsellers wrote:
DoglovingJim wrote:Regardless I disagree with lowering the age to vote down to 12, in my opinion it should remain 18 if not be higher.

That makes you...

...pretty much like everyone I have ever discussed this with.

But why is this? I mean 12 year old;s are easily influenced by authority figures such as parents and teachers, they are less likely to fathom properly what they are voting on. 12 year old's don't pay taxes, they can't be enlisted, they can't drive, legally they don't even own assets. So why should they vote?

And if we say that a 12 year old can't give consent to an adult due to the power roles and all that between the child and adult, how would voting work when mummy and daddy thinks ol' Bob should be president? So then you have to factor in which demographic has the most children, and therefore basically those families with more children have more votes, it ceases to be one person one vote since I don't know any child who wouldn't do what mum tells them (not to mention that children rely on their parents to survive otherwise they'd get taken to foster care). That is the reality, kids would vote the same as their parents and kids who are more "independent" would be influenced by teachers and whatever slogans the media pushes. They wouldn't act as informed voters.
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Edgar Cabrera wrote:HOLY SHIT GUYS, IT'S DOGLOVINGJIM!!! HE'S HERE!!!

skoobadive wrote:It's the legendary DoglovingJim! Ohboy, this must be the greatest day of my life!

Cracked.com wrote:Initially, his interest in animals was "primarily a sexual attraction," but as he grew older, he also "developed the emotional attraction." We guess we could call what Jim does ... dog-lovin'
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Re: The following people are dumb: idiots on the internet

Postby cmsellers » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:05 am

I don't really feel like arguing this. As a teenager I was better informed than most adults on politics and still couldn't persuade a single adult of the merits of lowering the voting age, as a result I no longer even try. I just mentioned that I support this because the author was proposed doing away with the category of 'minor' altogether, which would presumably result in a voting age of zero.
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Re: Minor rights

Postby Absentia » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:16 am

I say we let fetuses vote. One kick for Democrat, two for Republican.
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Re: Minor rights

Postby SandTea » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:08 am

Isn't this is a Gene Wilder and Richard Prior scene? Maybe Mel Brooks or Marx Bro's?

"one kick for Democrat, two for republican"
*two kicks*
"See!? The baby said Democrat twice!"
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Re: The following people are dumb: idiots on the internet

Postby satan_n_stuff » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:33 pm

DoglovingJim wrote:
cmsellers wrote:
DoglovingJim wrote:Regardless I disagree with lowering the age to vote down to 12, in my opinion it should remain 18 if not be higher.

That makes you...

...pretty much like everyone I have ever discussed this with.

But why is this? I mean 12 year old;s are easily influenced by authority figures such as parents and teachers, they are less likely to fathom properly what they are voting on. 12 year old's don't pay taxes, they can't be enlisted, they can't drive, legally they don't even own assets. So why should they vote?

And if we say that a 12 year old can't give consent to an adult due to the power roles and all that between the child and adult, how would voting work when mummy and daddy thinks ol' Bob should be president? So then you have to factor in which demographic has the most children, and therefore basically those families with more children have more votes, it ceases to be one person one vote since I don't know any child who wouldn't do what mum tells them (not to mention that children rely on their parents to survive otherwise they'd get taken to foster care). That is the reality, kids would vote the same as their parents and kids who are more "independent" would be influenced by teachers and whatever slogans the media pushes. They wouldn't act as informed voters.

In a properly regulated voting system it would be impossible for parents to ensure their children vote their way because voting is supposed to be completely anonymous. In fact most children in the 12-17 age bracket would refuse to vote the same as their parents if they could get away with it because teens tend to rebel against their parents in any way they can.
About the informed voters argument, how many adults do you think are genuinely informed voters? Probably not a whole lot of them, in fact I could ( but won't for privacy reasons ) point out specific examples of people who voted against their own best interests in any age group. Where I live you learn about politics pretty much the first election that occurs while you're in high school and sure someone that inexperienced won't understand all the nuances but most adults don't either. A tiny bit of non-partisan political education puts teens pretty much on the same level as the majority of adults.
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