Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

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Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby KleinerKiller » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:07 am

With the rash of beloved (or at least noteworthy) artists and personalities being outed as sexual harassers or assaulters, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find art and entertainment made by people we can still unequivocally like. So the question arises: can you still enjoy the work of people who turn out to be predators, bigots, or otherwise shitty creeps?

Personally, I've always been able to maintain an immense disconnect in cases like this; Kevin Spacey's actions won't keep me from watching movies he's been in, and I'll still laugh at a lot of Louis CK's comedy bits (though probably to a lesser extent because so much of that is tied to his life). I strongly disagree with the notion that doing so means you're morally complicit or advocating of the creators' actions, and knowing that virtually everyone -- even the people we love to hold up as flawless, relatable icons -- almost certainly has a skeleton or two in their closets as humans makes the disconnect easier to maintain. I also find it rather tiresome that "art can never exist in a vacuum and you're a heartless victim-blamer for saying otherwise" is becoming an increasingly popular sentiment in plenty of circles.

But what are your beliefs here?
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:42 pm

It's too late! I already have!

I can still enjoy the art but not without a voice in the back of my head saying "hey don't forget about what that fucker did!".
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby DamianaRaven » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:46 pm

I was wondering this exact thing today. Thank you for posting the thread. I don't have a firm opinion on the subject, but I'm willing to listen!
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby sunglasses » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:03 pm

You can enjoy whatever you want and still recognize that the person did some shady shit.


Fact is, people are not black and white. We've all most likely done things we aren't proud of or regret that would cause us to be blasted in the court of public opinion (which traditionally has a very low bar. Tan suits or wearing the same dress twice can be catastrophic. I'm not just talking about sexual misconduct. Winnona Ryder was shamed for years for shoplifting. Some people called her a terrible person.)

If you feel uncomfortable viewing someone's body of work because of their personal behavior, that's on you. As in, it's your choice. Some people might try to shame you- but they're kinda shitty people for that, too. They're the types of people who forever refuse to buy Exxon gas because of the Exxon Valdez in the 90s and who hold grudges from Kindergarten.

That's my two cents anyway
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby gisambards » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:07 pm

I think one can definitely still appreciate art made by a terrible person, but it can be uncomfortable to watch. I think there will be a lot of people, for example, who can still appreciate Kevin Spacey's performance in House of Cards, but no longer find themselves willing to actually watch it. This gets particularly bad when elements of the art remind you of what they did. I noticed this myself upon trying to rewatch The Thick of It: Chris Langham (who plays Hugh, the minister in the first two seasons, but left the show after being accused of - and later found guilty of and going to prison for - possession of child pornography) is incredibly funny, but I found it became extremely uncomfortable viewing whenever his character starts talking about children.

I don't think anyone should feel forced to avoid any art just because the person that made it is a terrible person, but the only time when I think a boycott might feel justified is when there's a sense that the entire project was only able to made through permissiveness of that terrible behaviour. An example of this is Spacey movies (or especially House of Cards, where Spacey was apparently harassing people on set), where I can understand people feeling people behind the scenes on that project must have been turning a blind eye in order for that project to be made. As I say, no-one should feel obligated to turn away from it, but equally people should be able to feel comfortable refusing to watch on moral grounds.
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby Absentia » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:16 pm

I can forgive a lot of artists' flaws as the product of normal human fallibility, but there does come a point where the crimes are so severe that looking at or thinking about them is more uncomfortable than the art is enjoyable. Call it the Cosby Event Horizon.
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby Marcuse » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:36 pm

I think for me it depends on the specific situation. There's definitely times I can set aside the actions of the individual in order to enjoy the art they've created. One good example is the album Generator by Aborym. It features on drums Bard Eithun (otherwise known as Faust) who was arrested and imprisoned for murdering a gay man around 1993/4. The album was the first one he played on since his release, but it's an awesome album, the guy served his time and to my knowledge hasn't done anything similar since. The content that was created has nothing to do with his actions, and so I don't see a reason why his crime would make me uncomfortable consuming the media that he has subsequently created.

On the other hand, I won't touch anything that even has a hint of being NSBM. I don't care if their riffs are the best, their music is awesome, if they're nazis singing about being nazis then I don't want any part of it. Even if they're subtle and sing about shit they don't think will get noticed by some people (like when Varg Vikernes wanted to call one of his albums "The White God") I get turned off.

I suppose the question I usually ask myself is; does the art confirm, support or otherwise aggrandise the reason I think the person is shitty? If so, then I don't like it. If it doesn't, then I can probably separate art from artist enough. I guess it's like asking would you trust someone who'd committed a murder to tell you the time.
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:58 pm

It depends on a lot of factors. What kind of art? Music, paintings, novels - where you don't see the artist - are a lot easier to enjoy even if the artist was a bad person. How terrible exactly? And how long ago it was? For instance, I enjoyed the poetry of Francois Villon, though I knew that he was a criminal and a murderer. But he lived in the 15th century, so who cares. But - as I have said before - I don't know if I can ever enjoy That '70s Show again.
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby cmsellers » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:16 pm

I was sure we'd had this discussion before, but when I found the thread the intent was somewhat different and it got a bit derailed.

Still, I'm just going to quote what I said at the time, because it's relevant, rephrasing the first sentence for being confusing.

I wrote:I don't care for John Lennon [or Kanye West]. Actually, that's wrong. Kanye West has absolutely no bearing on my life; I don't know what his music sounds like and pick up on only bits and pieces of the supposedly assholish things he does, usually through South Park. I'm essentially emotionally indifferent to him. But I identify strongly with Pete Best (kicked out of the band he helped start because he wouldn't go boozing with the other guys and told it was about his music), which means I disliked Lennon even before I knew he was likely a sociopath.

As for supporting an artist who is an asshole: I suppose it depends on how publicly awful they are (you can't care about what you don't know about), and whether enjoying their works enables their bad behavior. For example, Oscar Wilde liked to go to North Africa and rape little boys, but he's long dead, so I can enjoy his plays, because he doesn't get any royalties, and even if he did, he'd be too dead to use them.

Hank Williams Jr. was a dick to his sister, unsupportive of his son, and compared Obama to Hitler. Of course all of these are rather less evil than what Wilde did, but Hank Jr. is still alive to receive royalties. Thus, while I like his music, I try to avoid doing anything which could even indirectly give him royalties, which means I pretty much don't listen to it. And I'm fine with that. There are plenty of artists out there with equal or greater talent and less asshole cred; why knowingly give money to someone who will use it in pursuit of further assholery?
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby BROWNRECLUSE » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:22 am

I was in Atlanta when the Chris Benoit murder-suicide went down. As a longtime wrestling fan, and a fan of Benoit's, it was a rough pill to swallow.

I spent a long time away from wrestling. I find I am indifferent to his matches and his ability now. On the IWC (internet Wrestling community), it is widely regarded as tantamount to approving of what he did to his family if you liked his work. I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but the gravity of his actions clearly warped my ability to separate his wrestling from his final moments.
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby RatElemental » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:00 pm

Sorta related, but no matter how good a game it is I refuse to buy from EA ever again unless the company undergoes some massive changes beforehand. I won't not play the games from them I already own, but until the day either I die or their current policies die they will not see a penny from me.

The same sort of deal can apply to artists. If you buy or consume their work and pay for it, they are seeing some of that money in some way in most cases. Vote with your wallet and all that stuff.

If, however, an artist is convicted of whatever it is they've done, and pay their debt to society then things change. OTOH if they're found not guilty then that also can change things. Assuming a fair trial and verdict and sentence, anyway, which some people may still not agree with.

This all, of course, not even getting a lack of enjoyment simply because of the association.

... Shit, I had a point when I started typing this, I swear.
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby Aquila89 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:35 pm

random_nerd wrote:Sorta related, but no matter how good a game it is I refuse to buy from EA ever again unless the company undergoes some massive changes beforehand. I won't not play the games from them I already own, but until the day either I die or their current policies die they will not see a penny from me.


That raises a different question; is it unethical to pirate a game from a company that you're boycotting?
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby Marcuse » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:15 pm

Aquila89 wrote:
random_nerd wrote:Sorta related, but no matter how good a game it is I refuse to buy from EA ever again unless the company undergoes some massive changes beforehand. I won't not play the games from them I already own, but until the day either I die or their current policies die they will not see a penny from me.


That raises a different question; is it unethical to pirate a game from a company that you're boycotting?


Is it unethical to steal from a shop you wouldn't go into? Still theft, even if you don't like the people you're stealing from really hard. Also before anyone objects because no physical thing was stolen, violating someone else's property rights is still unethical even if it's not a physical property, unless intellectual property isn't a thing anyone cares about any more?
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby cmsellers » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:11 pm

The copyright infringement = theft analogy is one of my pet peeves. You certainly can make the case that it's morally wrong, but when you ignore the distinction between exclusive vs. non-exclusive goods to complain about theft, you make it look like you don't have a leg to stand on.

But as to the main question: I believe that pirating work by people you find morally objectionable is worse than pirating stuff by people you admire, because I'm in the "if you wouldn't buy it anyways, piracy is a net positive to the people you're pirating from" camp. If you pirate a game, you're probably going to talk about it and play it up to friends. If it has a multiplayer mode, you may expand the market share. Microsoft has reportedly said something to the effect of "we're opposed to piracy, but if you're not going to buy our products you'd prefer you pirate them," because it builds market share for them.

Now EA has business practices people don't like but I'm not familiar with anything they've done that actually unethical. So I'd say that pirating their games is also worse than paying for them, insomuch as you're pirating as a form of protest. But even you were pirating Microsoft's products back in the nineties because you had a deep moral monopolistic behavior, I'd say it's still morally objectionable. Possibly less so than paying for the products but if you could find an alternative (Netscape or WordPerfect) using that would have been preferable. Nowadays, with Microsoft behaving itself and freeware alternatives that are just as good as Microsoft's for anything that 99% of people will ever to, I'd say that pirating their products because you don't like their business practices is the worst moral choice you could make.

I'd make the same suggestion with regards to games. It's not like EA has a monopoly on a specific genre of games the way that Paradox does. I'm not sure what games you're thinking of pirating but I'm sure there's alternatives out there. Some of them might even be freeware, which by helping build the community of users you're making it more likely that bugs will be caught and more likely that people will want to develop it. It would be a sacrifice on your part because the games probably wouldn't have the userbase that EA games do, but if you're not willing to give them your money you shouldn't be willing to give them your time or your loyalty.
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Re: Can you enjoy art made by a terrible person?

Postby Aquila89 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:19 pm

cmsellers wrote:I'd make the same suggestion with regards to games. It's not like EA has a monopoly on a specific genre of games the way that Paradox does. I'm not sure what games you're thinking of pirating but I'm sure there's alternatives out there.


I'm not thinking of pirating any games, because I don't play video games (except for simple, free flash games on the Internet). I don't even know what EA makes. My question was purely hypothetical.
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