Potential Problems with the Left

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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Kivutar » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:46 am

What aviel said. Literally nobody here supports either Nazi or Antifa violence. Also what Crimson said: we're all pointing at the other side and saying "No, you have more extremists! Your extremists are worse!"

I suspect that much of the problem is also that, given the shitty political atmosphere right now, virtually all of us are coming into this forum with a hell of a lot of baggage from political disagreements with facebook or IRL friends. Noodles and Kate are very right: many conservatives have lost friends due to liberals overreacting and unfairly conflating them with the worst people on the right. On the other hand, many of us on the left have also had problems with conservative friends and family members (it's been difficult for me to watch some family members polarize into unabashed white supremacists when before it was merely "don't get into Thanksgiving dinner political conversations, mkay?")

This hurts everybody and it sucks.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby cmsellers » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:50 am

Kivutar wrote:What aviel said. Literally nobody here supports either Nazi or Antifa violence.

I'm not going to name names, but there is at least one member here who believes it's OK to punch someone for being a Nazi. I'm not sure if he's stated his position in the forums, but he has argued in favor of it multiple times on Discord.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:53 am

cmsellers wrote:
Kivutar wrote:What aviel said. Literally nobody here supports either Nazi or Antifa violence.

I'm not going to name names, but there is at least one member here who believes it's OK to punch someone for being a Nazi. I'm not sure if he's stated his position in the forums, but he has argued in favor of it multiple times on Discord.


Oh, I did, though I immortalized it on the forum.

Although, I don't support like...actually beating or killing them. But I've punched my friends before and remained friends, I don't think a single sock to the mouth is a big deal. For a people whose worldview is that they're tough manly men fighting back the feminized pansy flower children, they sure do get bent out of shape about a flying haymaker from left field.

Then again, judging from Charlottesville, that's because Neo-Nazis apparently range between middle aged paunchy dads and super soft preppy types who would probably apologize to you if you shoved them off the sidewalk.
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Last edited by Doodle Dee. Snickers on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Grimstone » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:57 am

I can understand someone getting upset enough to punch a nazi(that's in their face about it), yeah.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby cmsellers » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:59 am

Grimstone wrote:I can understand someone getting upset enough to punch a nazi(that's in their face about it), yeah.

Yeah, you were the person I was referring to.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Learned Nand » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:04 am

NoodleFox wrote:Because people are endorsing or downplaying these extreme leftists and their actions. And those people are in high places.

I'm not sure exactly whom you think those people are, but people in this thread (and in the poll to which I linked) have been pretty clear that they don't support Antifa or other violent extremist groups. Nor has this thread previously involved much discussion of high-ranking figures of the political left endorsing, excusing, or downplaying left-wing political violence. So I'm not sure this provides a good answer to my question.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:09 am

Yeah, to add onto that; before I get micharacterized here, I don't generally endorse wholesale violence against the right, I guess I just have a higher bar for what I consider actual violence.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Lindvaettr » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:10 am

On not terribly related note, one problem I have with the left is many liberals' desire to see Trump out of office. As I see it, as much of a bumbling buffoon as Trump is, he has the advantages of being both so inept as to be making the entire Republican party thus far almost entirely ineffective, and being such a gaping asshole that the rest of the world seems pretty happy to just hold him responsible personally for everything he says and does, as opposed to America in general. As a bonus, Trump's inability to handle literally any situation in a way that isn't infuriating is doing an excellent job of driving a wedge into the Republican party ranks, which definitely gives the advantage to the Democrats, if only they choose to use it.

If Trump goes, Pence is potentially both much farther right in a lot of bad ways as well as much more effective. Ditto (to a lesser extent) for Paul Ryan. Without Trump, we risk many of the things Trump wants, and more, actually being implemented, as well as a return (perhaps to an even greater degree) of the Bush-era feelings of much of the world towards America, which was much more "Americans are responsible for this stuff", and much less, "Poor Americans having to deal with this asshole".

Overall, I feel the left tends to lack a foundation of pragmatism. Sometimes a Pyrrhic victory for the other side is better than a normal one for your own.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby cmsellers » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:16 am

Now I'm not a leftist, but I am to the left-of-center on a left-right axis, and particularly with social issues, which is the wing of the GOP that Pence represents. I know what a Pence presidency would entail, and I'd certainly prefer that if Trump were removed Pence—who has enabled him—goes with him. However I'm fine with a Ryan or even a Pence presidency, even if it means the GOP getting what they want on a variety of problematic issues. Trump is dangerous and normalizing him undermines our norms. I feel like your view—that it's better to have someone who keep him because he's fucking things up for the Republicans—is the more problematic one.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:19 am

cmsellers wrote:Now I'm not a leftist, but I am to the left-of-center on a left-right axis, and particularly with social issues, which is the wing of the GOP that Pence represents. I know what a Pence presidency would entail, and I'd certainly prefer that if Trump were removed Pence—who has enabled him—goes with him. However I'm fine with a Ryan or even a Pence presidency, even if it means the GOP getting what they want on a variety of problematic issues. Trump is dangerous and normalizing him undermines our norms. I feel like your view—that it's better to have someone who keep him because he's fucking things up for the Republicans—is the more problematic one.


I agree. Pence would be problematic, he'd almost certainly be more efficient in getting some far right things done, but I won't have to worry about him calling the media the enemy of the state or castigating the justice department or calling the intelligence community Nazis. I wouldn't have to worry that if he loses a re-election bid, that he'll declare the election null and void. Pence would do a lot of things I don't like, but he'd be better long term for the country.

Although he did compare Trump to Teddy Roosevelt, which I find deeply offensive.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Lindvaettr » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:46 am

Sorry, I can't get on board with this. The argument for keeping Trump, a guy who so far hasn't managed to accomplish ANYTHING he wanted to, who is in the news basically every day for failing to do something, for losing support, for losing staff, for going on laughable tirades, is that he'll overthrow the entire republic and install himself as a dictator, and that's just going to work, somehow?

No. It's not going to happen. The chances of Trump launching a nuke, and the nuke getting hit by another nuke that Trump launched while both nukes are over Los Angeles is higher than the chance that Trump could come anywhere even approaching a successful coup. The entire idea is quite honestly so laughably unbelievable that it wouldn't even make a good James Franco movie.

I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything, but I quite honestly can't come up with a serious response. This event is simply not going to occur.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby cmsellers » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:55 am

Lindvaettr wrote:Sorry, I can't get on board with this. The argument for keeping Trump, a guy who so far hasn't managed to accomplish ANYTHING he wanted to, who is in the news basically every day for failing to do something, for losing support, for losing staff, for going on laughable tirades, is that he'll overthrow the entire republic and install himself as a dictator, and that's just going to work, somehow?

You're completely misrepresenting my argument. My argument is that he sets invidious precedent when he does shit no president should do and gets away with it, and when a more competent president does it, it's no big deal.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Lindvaettr » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:14 am

That wasn't really in response to you. In regards to the normalization, I actually think that argument works in favor of keeping Trump over Pence, as well as Ryan. The risk of Trump's egregious behavior becoming the new normal is exceedingly low, as I see it, not least of all because if anything, it's torpedoing his own administration, not adding to it. An even semi-competent leader would avoid it if for no other reason than they don't want to fail miserably from day one. It's not doing Trump any favors in the approval ratings area, either. Despite not dropping as fast as many of us would expect, both his approval and favorability ratings are slowly but surely declining.

Politicians don't like him, voters don't like him. Every day that passes, he has fewer friends, more enemies, and less voter support, and this is only month 8 of 48.

On the other hand, Pence and Ryan are both more extreme versions of political ideology that is already prevalent in America. A government handled well by Pence or Ryan would risk resurrecting settled issues, relighting dying fires in other issues, and normalizing a vast array of extremely conservative, regressive policies.

If anything, Pence or Ryan would leave the American political system in a much more dangerous place than Trump will leave it. There's no reason, as far as I can see, right now to believe that Trump will set any kind of new standard. He's a leader whose behavior and tactics fail to allow him to either lead or govern, and more people are seeing him as such. I find it much more likely he'll serve as an example of what not to do than as a guide for what to do.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:22 am

The problem with that argument is that it underestimates the effects of partisanship and misconstrues why Trump's voters are slowly drifting away. For the most part, a majority of Republicans agree (or at least go along with it) when Trump says crazy shit, the kind of shit his vp would not say. He's unpopular not because he 's saying things his party disagrees with, but because he is ineffectual.
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Re: Potential Problems with the Left

Postby NoodleFox » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:12 am

aviel wrote:
NoodleFox wrote:Because people are endorsing or downplaying these extreme leftists and their actions. And those people are in high places.

I'm not sure exactly whom you think those people are, but people in this thread (and in the poll to which I linked) have been pretty clear that they don't support Antifa or other violent extremist groups. Nor has this thread previously involved much discussion of high-ranking figures of the political left endorsing, excusing, or downplaying left-wing political violence. So I'm not sure this provides a good answer to my question.


Those people = those that claim they are leftists or have left leaning beliefs who do this:

Professor-
Spoiler: show
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/07/19/berkeley-middle-school-teacher-yvette-felarca-arrested-charges-inciting-riot/
Yvette Felarca, the controversial Berkeley middle school teacher who frequently marches and protests against groups she considers to be fascistic, was arrested Tuesday night in connection with a violent neo-Nazi rally in Sacramento in June 2016.

Police took Felarca, 47, into custody in Southern California on charges of assault by means of force likely to inflict great bodily injury, a felony, and participating in a riot, and inciting a riot, both misdemeanors, according to information provided by the Sacramento County District Attorney’s office.

Felarca was captured on video hitting a member of the Traditionalist Worker’s Party, a white nationalist group that had taken out permits for a rally on the west steps of the state capitol. Felarca, a member of the group By Any Means Necessary, and other counter-protesters blocked the rally by chasing and hitting members of the Traditional Worker’s Party. At least 10 people suffered stab wounds and lacerations in the melee.

Felarca was filmed calling a man a Nazi, and punching him in the stomach repeatedly while shouting for him to “get the fuck off our streets.”
...In September, BUSD put Felarca on administrative leave. The district declined to specify why she was put on leave, citing personnel reasons. In October, a roomful of her supporters testified to her teaching abilities and insisted BUSD reinstate her. Their comments got so heated that the board shut down the meeting for a short period. Felarca returned to her classroom six weeks after being placed on leave.

Felarca then filed a civil rights lawsuit against BUSD for suspending her. Court documents revealed that BUSD had placed her on administrative leave her because the district thought she was soliciting students to participate in protests and had used personal time off inappropriately. Felarca dropped the lawsuit in May.
https://archive.is/Qt1gb
When I was sixteen, BAMN convinced me that my family was abusive and crazy and that it was better that I move in with BAMN members. I did so against my family's will. When my family started to look for me, BAMN advised me that it was best that I move from my hometown (Detroit, MI) to live with BAMN members in another part of the country. They told me that I could legally solicit emancipation (without my parent's consent) upon turning 17 and since my birthday was soon, this meant that I would not be away from Detroit for longer than one month. However, they lied. They took me to Oakland, CA to live with Yvette Felarca and instructed me to change my name to "Chase Stern" and cut off all contact with family and friends and even other BAMN members in Detroit. I complied, thinking that that would only be for a short time.
However, upon turning 17, BAMN's leadership in Detroit just did not answer my phone calls. When they finally answered, they told me I had to just wait a little longer and each time, I would ask when I got to go home, this is the answer they would give me. I ended up being in Oakland for a year. A few weeks before I turned 18, I decided that I wanted to end the ordeal so I contacted my family and reconciled with them. My mother bought me a plane ticket back to Detroit. When I informed BAMN, they tried to talk me out of leaving, but I was adamant on returning home for at least a little while and having a chance to reestablish relations with my family and friends. When they realized they could not talk me out of leaving, they got physical. Yvette Felarca came into my room one night and instructed me to read out loud a statement that Shanta Driver had written and convinced me to sign about how my family was abusive. Tired of debating my decision with them, I refused. That night, Yvette and other BAMN members took turns sleeping by my bed to "make sure he doesn't go anywhere." They confiscated my house keys to restrict my movement.


Professor:
Spoiler: show

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Berkeley mayor:
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http://archive.is/dWKfR
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http://filmingcops.com/reports-surface-berkeley-cops-told-stand/
Lawyer:
[Spoiler]Imagehttps://www.aclu.org/news/fbi-document-labels-michigan-affirmative-action-and-peace-groups-terrorists?redirect=national-security/fbi-document-labels-michigan-affirmative-action-and-peace-groups-terrorists
[url]documents-tie-berkeley-riot-organizers-to-pro-pedophilia-group-nambla/[/url]
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News Outlets:
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Image


College campuses:
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Companies:
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These are some of the "higher ups" I mentioned, people in power. There was also a pastebin drop today where hundreds upon hundreds of Antifa members were identifed: teachers, professors, university heads, activists from past presidental campaigns, pastors - of course, me posting the archive link would be me doxxing by proxy, so I won't disclose it, but it's there if you feel like getting dirty.

I spent several hours digging all of this up in regards to the topic in general and I hope some will at the least read something (PLEASE don't let my time be in vain, come on guys...) or watch some of the YouTube vids by a guy named Mister Metokur who I linked in some of the sections. If you can get past his trolly shittalk, there's a very intelligent man speaking here.

Edit: fixed coding
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