Working Doesn't Work

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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby commodore64 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:50 am

The Politifact page asserts that social security isn't a Ponzi scheme because it is transparent, because the total number of new investors can never be exhausted, and because it is morally sound. This last point is more or less related to the first.

The second point is what functionally differentiates the two, in my estimation. A Ponzi scheme dries up when you can't find new investors, whereas new investors in social security are limitless.

I wrote this article before I heard of Perry's comparison.

I would really like to move my 401k to a straight index fund (I believe this is the right terminology) - something that would just go up and down with the market. The company my employer uses doesn't seem to allow this option. The only options I seem to have are funds that seem to be entirely invested in other funds. I can't figure out how exactly the account lost money.

NathanLoiselle wrote:BUT WHAT DO I DO IF I DON'T HAVE A RESPONSIBLE CAREER?!?!?!?!


Remain hairy.

iMURDAu wrote:
NathanLoiselle wrote:BUT WHAT DO I DO IF I DON'T HAVE A RESPONSIBLE CAREER?!?!?!?!


Step up your golf game? Maybe find a judge who has a gambling problem and hope the club pro wants to help you stick it to him in match play. Dynamite is optional but recommended.

For most workers paid an hourly wage a 401k is the least of their problems seeing as how hard it is to get full time employment without a college degree. And then if they have a degree they might still owe on student loans.


I've actually had a couple part time jobs where a 401k was mandatory. I even had one where they took the money out of our checks but it never made it to the 401k account.

Gendry wrote:The feeling I got from this article;

Image


Let's take the middle road. Remain at your post and avoid haircuts.

Ericthebearjew wrote:Hey, if being unemployed worked out for The Dude, it's good enough for me.


So long as you abide.

I know that was obvious, but I saw an opportunity and I took it, because that is what heros do.

Doodle Dee. Snickers wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:The perks of not having a job:

1. May grow longer hair if male.
2. ???


That's the only perk you need. Actually, as I work as a certified smart person now, my beard and hair are free to grow as long as I want to let them. Because you know what's more trustworthy than someone smart? Someone smart with a wild-growing beard.


I presume you look sagely.

sunglasses wrote:*snorts coke*

I'm pretty sure I know why I don't have any money for anything more than bills. Or savings. It's this god awful mortgage.


Did you take out a mortgage for the cocaine? I thought they'd tightened up these regulations.

Tesseracts wrote:The perks of not having a job:

1. May grow longer hair if male.
2. ???


Well, there is the whole not having to work thing.
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Last edited by Learned Nand on Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: combined all posts
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Learned Nand » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:45 am

The Politifact page asserts that social security isn't a Ponzi scheme because it is transparent, because the total number of new investors can never be exhausted, and because it is morally sound. This last point is more or less related to the first.

The second point is what functionally differentiates the two, in my estimation. A Ponzi scheme dries up when you can't find new investors, whereas new investors in social security are limitless.

The first and second points are what define a Ponzi scheme; without those components, it is nothing like one.

I would really like to move my 401k to a straight index fund (I believe this is the right terminology) - something that would just go up and down with the market. The company my employer uses doesn't seem to allow this option. The only options I seem to have are funds that seem to be entirely invested in other funds. I can't figure out how exactly the account lost money.

Depending on how young you are, you might have a lot of your 401(k) in stocks, but as you get older, an index fund makes less and less sense. It's probably worth talking to a financial advisor you think you can trust though, as I'm not even an amateur in finances much less tan expert.

Also, it's generally considered bad practice to multi-post; you should probably combine your replies into one post in the future.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby commodore64 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:16 am

aviel wrote:
Also, it's generally considered bad practice to multi-post; you should probably combine your replies into one post in the future.


Sorry. I had no idea.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Dr. Ambiguous » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:23 am

Keep your replies to a single post at a time. You don't need to reply 8 times in a row, you can do that in a single post.

TCS Etiquette Guide wrote:7). Double Posting: One post is usually sufficient to reply to a thread at any one time, you can reply to multiple posters and present several thoughts in one post. You can use the edit function to add new thoughts if you’re still the most recent poster in a thread. As such there is no need to double post in most threads. There are exceptions, for example, posting in a thread which has been out of use with fresh information, but in general double posting is unnecessary. Making more posts than you need in an effort to increase your post count, or double posting to try to get extra rep for what should've been just one post is also unacceptable. (If you accidentally double post you can use the report button to notify a moderator, and they'll take care of it).

For more information on forum etiquette read the TCS Etiquette Guide.

Edit: Just noticed your above response. It popped up while I was writing this so I missed it originally.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Ladki96 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:49 pm

Sooo... the Libertarians were right?
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby sunglasses » Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:35 pm

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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Beernpotatoes » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:16 pm

What strikes me is that the average citizen desperately WANTS capitalism.  But we want real capitalism, not the crooked system we have now that is dominated by a few giants and which the small investor can only lose and will almost certainly never win.  Faith in Wall Street is at an all time low - and that's for both investors and producers.  If you have a business idea, chances are that you won't have a prayer of obtaining the capital you need to turn that idea into a viable product by turning to Wall Street.  So, people created their own capital market outside of Wall Street - Kickstarter and other "crowd funding" services are nothing more than "pure" capitalism at work.  I say, support them and support new business ideas... that's where our future will come from.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:48 pm

What constitutes "real" capitalism, and how is that more real that a system we have now?
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Beernpotatoes » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:37 pm

aviel wrote:What constitutes "real" capitalism, and how is that more real that a system we have now?


Capitalism, in it's purest form, is a system that, on the one hand, allows those with money to invest to freely invest their money in ideas/products/producers that they believe will be successful and therefore pay dividends; and on the other hand, allows producers to acquire the money capital that they need to produce their products. It is a pooling of resources by the public.

"Crowd funding" is pure capitalism. Or at least the purest attempt at it. So far, you can gather lots of tiny investments into a capital fund to pursue your project, but you can't quite sell a share of the profits - that's still regulated.

However, the regulated market is so dominated by large players, that the small investor simply goes along for the ride. If you make money in the stock market, it's by pure luck, because there are thousands of people who know things you don't and who are busy manipulating the market. Mostly, you'll lose.

So what do you do with your meager savings? Let a ginormous bank hold it and pay you 0.01% interest? What if you could take some of that money, find a person with a brilliant new idea, and buy a share of the future profits now, before he/she makes it big?
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Can't a guy screw someone out of an honest buck without getting a big hassle?
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:51 pm

You still haven't explained what differentiates your proposed "real" capitalism from just capitalism in practice. None of your criteria for real capitalism include other people not having lots of money.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby commodore64 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:14 am

aviel wrote:You still haven't explained what differentiates your proposed "real" capitalism from just capitalism in practice. None of your criteria for real capitalism include other people not having lots of money.


I think what he is getting at is that in many sectors, the established players dominate the market to the extent that new players can't enter.

This is illustrated by the Uber / Traditional Taxi issue. In most cities, the city sells a limited number of taxi licenses. You have to have one of these to operate a taxi, and in most cases, one or two established companies have all the licenses. This raises fares by limiting competition and makes it impossible for new players (companies or independent drivers) to enter the market. Even though taxi drivers are usually self-employed independent contractors (in my area of the country, anyway), they are actually leasing the right to use one of these licenses from their employer.
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Last edited by Learned Nand on Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited instead of replying. Again. I really have to get used to having mod powers on this forum.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:56 am

commodore64 wrote:
I presume you look sagely.


In keeping with the Tolkein theme, since I'm actually...kinda stocky for a trained monkey at a computer, I think I'd be more like...

Image

But with a college degree and working at a computer. But still with the axe, of course.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:51 pm

commodore64 wrote:I think what he is getting at is that in many sectors, the established players dominate the market to the extent that new players can't enter.

Yeah, that is a problem. I just don't see how it isn't "real" capitalism.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby commodore64 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:47 pm

aviel wrote:
commodore64 wrote:I think what he is getting at is that in many sectors, the established players dominate the market to the extent that new players can't enter.

Yeah, that is a problem. I just don't see how it isn't "real" capitalism.


The artifice is in the limitation of taxi licenses. If cities required licensing, but issued as many licenses as there were drivers who meet the requirements, then it would be real free market capitalism. I am not necessarily endorsing this. It could create taxi congestion. But that is how it isn't real capitalism.
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Re: Working Doesn't Work

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:51 pm

Well yeah, if the government is actively creating a monopoly then I get it, but that's not what Beernpotatoes mentioned.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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