What's your religious experience?

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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby iMURDAu » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:29 pm

As far as I know the contractor doesn't own the building, but I don't know who does. Its an obvious eyesore, big ass concrete/stone structure sitting in the middle of a field. It was still like that a month ago when we were up there. Whoever owns it probably can't afford to or refuses to pay for demolition. Then you'd have the fundys who would go apeshit over a *gasp* "church" being torn down and how that is a further sign of terrorists winning and that damn Obama guy blah blah blah. That last sentence might sound crazy but its true of the area.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Marcuse » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:42 pm

OK everyone, I've sort of let this slide because the thread got a little out of steam, but I don't want to have any more discussion here about how churches are eyesores and whatnot. If you want to do that then you can start a thread in general or something. I started this because I wanted to hear from people about their religious experiences in a safe environment away from people saying how dumb x was for believing this or that.

I'd like to ask that this continue in the same spirit. Because we've had a lot of heartfelt posts here, and it seems a shame to let it descend into idle fish/barrel shooting and bashing because a few people can't read and understand simple and clearly stated instructions.

Please refer back to the OP before replying here. I want to keep this thread for people's description of their experience only.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Matthew Notch » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:37 am

Just to be clear, even the Bible lays out very plainly that getting business arrangements in writing is critical, even among fellow believers, and furthermore there's the very classic fable of Jesus in which he says one must "count the cost" before building a big building. Like that's literally what he said.

If anything, what I mean to say with all this isn't to move people to believe one thing or the other, but rather to take each scenario one at a time. I've heard it said that Christians can't pick and choose who another Christian is; if a person claims to be one, they are and there's nothing anyone can do about it. That seems misleading, as Jenny McCarthy could call herself a "leading voice in the fight for autism" and, like, actual autism researchers couldn't promptly dismiss her anti-vaccination rants as not true science, since she made the claim after all that she had science on her side. So, if anything, those autism researchers will have to be associated somewhat with those who don't mind their children getting the measles, but a distinction can be made based on the results their research brings by comparison.

I bring this all up because part of my religious experience, which I didn't mention in the big gigantic post I made earlier in this thread, is having to live with constantly clearing up misconceptions about my faith. This ran the range of, "Oh, you don't celebrate birthdays? Do you not believe in cake?" to "I don't trust you people because you don't believe in Jesus." I "believe" in both those things, and more accurately, there have been many times in my life in which I have let both those things influence my actions, even when the results wouldn't be entirely pleasant for me. If it's hard to imagine cake being unpleasant, let me first say that it definitely can be, and that it used to be equally hard for me to imagine sacrificing something that looked good for the sake of faith being unpleasant. But I digress.

I've always believed that people, when they died, were meant to be resurrected and to live on Earth. A person's death was never part of God's plan, so when I hear, "God wanted another angel up in Heaven" or "Well, all things happen for a reason," it infuriates me, quite literally. It says, right there in Ecclesiastes, that sometimes things JUST HAPPEN. And what kind of comfort does it bring someone who loses a child, for instance, to hear that God took the child away? What kind of picture does that paint of God? To me, that's like someone slandering a dear friend. So I speak up, and probably I say more than I really should on the matter, like I'm currently doing. This isn't a preaching forum, and I apologize if I'm preaching. But that has always been a huge part of my religious experience, so I feel like it's relevant anyway.

I don't think most people who aren't religious would lump me in with Fred Phelps, for example. But it does get tiresome being lumped in with people who apparently haven't ever even cracked a Bible before, yet claim to be "saved". I can't criticize anyone who doesn't believe in God or organized religion. Religion itself has done a fine job turning people away from it. But I also maintain that there must be at least one good, solid, as-close-to-the-truth-as-you-can-get faith in this world, and I also believe that there is a God, and that He deserves worship. So it behooves me to try and discover that while I still have time to do so. Although, in these past few months, I have really fallen away from the search for it.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby iMURDAu » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:30 am

Well excuse me for replying to a post and then answering a question someone asked me. I'll leave your topic alone since I'm not welcome here.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Matthew Notch » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:27 am

Aww buddy, don't feel that way. After all, Marcuse's exact words were...

Marcuse wrote:OK everyone, I've sort of let this slide because the thread got a little out of steam...


It's just a matter of staying on topic is all, out of respect for him and for the others who have opened up a very personal part of themselves to this forum in this thread, and that includes you too, good sir.

For the record, too, when I made that last long freakin' post, that was more inspired by than responding to the church you mentioned, but not responding to you personally either. I hope you didn't feel attacked or anything by it, because that sure wasn't my intention.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Learned Nand » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:31 am

JugularNotch wrote:If anything, what I mean to say with all this isn't to move people to believe one thing or the other, but rather to take each scenario one at a time. I've heard it said that Christians can't pick and choose who another Christian is; if a person claims to be one, they are and there's nothing anyone can do about it. That seems misleading, as Jenny McCarthy could call herself a "leading voice in the fight for autism" and, like, actual autism researchers couldn't promptly dismiss her anti-vaccination rants as not true science

Right, but the qualifications for "leading" are different than the qualifications for being a member of a religion. I've said in other threads that religion is substantially more about identity than belief. I agree with your point about people who are sure that you believe something you don't. It's famously a problem with atheists. Fundamentalists often think we affirmatively deny the existence of a god (and very few of us do), or that we worship ourselves, or most hilariously that we worship Satan.

"Well, all things happen for a reason," it infuriates me, quite literally.

This phrase also bothers me, though for a different reason: I don't like the implication that human suffering is good. Here's a tip: any time a person says everything happens for a reason, just ask "the holocaust?"
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby 52xMax » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:25 am

aviel wrote:
JugularNotch wrote: "Well, all things happen for a reason," it infuriates me, quite literally.

This phrase also bothers me, though for a different reason: I don't like the implication that human suffering is good.


That has always bothered me too, and not because of religious reasons, but because of grammar. It's an absolute tautology and an incredible stupid way to waste time and words by saying something that has no meaning at all; and yet, people try to use it as a philosophical cornerstone.
Of course things happen for a reason, so what? that's Newton's 2nd law: to every action corresponds a reaction. If things happened differently, we would not be able to notice it, because that would be our reality instead of this one. And in that reality people would still say that things happen for a reason, but they'd be talking about potentially drastic differences without ever knowing it. They would be experiencing different things, happening for different reasons.

I don't mean to sound insulting or condescending to anybody, I just happen to believe that that particular phrasing is asinine and meaningless, and I did so too ever since I was a fervent believer. If people use that phrase to tiptoe around the fact that they believe that reason has to be some kind of cosmic or supernatural force (sentient or not, etc, etc) well just say so. I will disagree with you, but we can have an amicable discussion where hopefully all sides can learn something from the others and keep it civilized.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Learned Nand » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:41 am

Gladstone talked about this phrase. I don't think people mean it in the sense that everything has a cause, but rather that everything has a purpose, which isn't tautological, just problematic.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Matthew Notch » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:31 am

Yeah, that's a good clarification both Maxy and Avi. Although the expression is "Everything happens for a reason", what's really being said is "Everything has a purpose for happening". Which, in a way, is sort of true too: even the Holocaust had a purpose, albeit a horrific and very misguided one. It's really more about knowing what the other person is actually saying when that expression or ones similar to it are used.

Before I get preachy again, spoiler tags:
Spoiler: show
52xMax wrote:If people use that phrase to tiptoe around the fact that they believe that reason has to be some kind of cosmic or supernatural force (sentient or not, etc, etc) well just say so.


I'm not entirely sure that's what even the most fundamentalist believers mean by that, though. See, I'm not as sharp as you or Aviel, but I understand the way people of faith think on account of having talked to so many of them over the years. One of the biggest, scariest beliefs people have is that everything is in God's hands. Their lives, the lives of their loved ones, the whole world, etc. When I say that belief is big and scary, it's because a lot of things in the world are just not right. In an age of modern medicine babies still die in childbirth. In a time when men can rocket to the moon, we can't even sort out how to feed the world. If God is in control, why would he allow all these things to happen?

Of course, nihilists will maintain that there is no God, therefore no reason to assume one WOULD interfere. A lot of agnostics just kind of assert that there is a God, but one who more or less started the machine and walked away. My own belief is that God definitely exists and even cares, but on account of the assertion that people could do it better (remembering that the Original Sin wasn't eating a fruit, but wanting to be "like God"), the world has been turned over to humanity for an attempt at self-rule. And in humanity's defense, look how far we've come over the years! The question, then, is if this is satisfactory or will EVER be.

I've mentioned this to others before and they took umbrage at God's non-interference: "If He's so big and powerful, why doesn't he just make the world better?" And that's interesting, because we actually have laws in place in this country to specifically prohibit just that very thing: letting the bigger, stronger, richer, more intelligent take control of those who are lacking. Most if not all of the more enlightened nations of the world disdain dictatorships, to take the analogy further. I'm included in that, but that's because dictators are all people, and I don't think people (be they presidents OR dictators) are remotely qualified to govern other people. I'd be okay with God taking control, sure. But I honestly feel like most people who ask that question wouldn't be.

So when I hear "Everything happens for a reason", it annoys me, because what's really being said is, "This is all part of God's plan", and quite frankly, NO, it's not. MOST of the things that are happening in the world are not part of God's plan as far as I'm concerned. I've also heard it said, "Why would God make all these people and then just let them suffer?" My answer to that is "teenagers". Every single human who has children will watch them make stupid mistakes that cause them pain, yet they can't interfere with their children's lives forever. At some point teenagers have to grow up and be their own person, and those two things don't always happen in order, and sometimes not at all. So it is with people: if they want autonomy and the ability to function as individuals, it's hardly fitting for them to also demand that God bend the collective wills of humanity a certain direction, and especially hypocritical to treat God like a fire extinguisher, or like that bratty teenager who yells and cusses out Daddy, then gets in a world of trouble and expects to be bailed out without question.

Anyhow.


aviel wrote:I agree with your point about people who are sure that you believe something you don't. It's famously a problem with atheists.


One of my favorite articles back on that one website, remember the one? It was written by David Wong, about things atheists and believers need to agree on. That was one of his strongest points, that being misunderstood, or being lumped in with the few loudest, looniest characters in the bunch, is entirely frustrating, no matter which side of the table you're on.

aviel wrote:Fundamentalists often think we affirmatively deny the existence of a god (and very few of us do), or that we worship ourselves, or most hilariously that we worship Satan.


Wait, when did you stop offering allegiances to the Dark Lord? I don't even know what you are like anymore.
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"I do feel that if she happens to favour attractive, successful, intelligent men I will be at a disadvantage."--Anglerphobe

"I have a beautiful sphincter and Mexico is gonna pay for it."--Kate
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Learned Nand » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:52 am

Generally, good parents don't let their teenagers learn lessons the hard way when that lesson involves dying.

I remember that article. My primary gripe with it was just that David Wong criticized people for being glad that Falwell died because they disagreed with him. That's not why it might be okay to be glad he died; rather, it's because he was a hateful person. It's not okay to be glad a person you disagreed with died, but it might be okay to be glad a bad person died (though I'm not judging now whether Falwell was bad enough to justify happiness about his death).

Also:

JugularNotch wrote:Wait, when did you stop offering allegiances to the Dark Lord?

Satan's a total flake. You sacrifice the blood of a virgin so he'll give you a million dollars, and every time you ask him you'll hear he's "totally good for it", but just needs to cash his next paycheck or wait until his lawsuit is settled. At this point, I'm sick of it. He can do business with somebody else. I hear Chase is hiring.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Matthew Notch » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:58 am

On to bigger and betters, eh? I'm proud of ya :P
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"I do feel that if she happens to favour attractive, successful, intelligent men I will be at a disadvantage."--Anglerphobe

"I have a beautiful sphincter and Mexico is gonna pay for it."--Kate
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Dr. Ambiguous » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:17 am

JugularNotch wrote:Yeah, that's a good clarification both Maxy and Avi. Although the expression is "Everything happens for a reason", what's really being said is "Everything has a purpose for happening". Which, in a way, is sort of true too: even the Holocaust had a purpose, albeit a horrific and very misguided one. It's really more about knowing what the other person is actually saying when that expression or ones similar to it are used.
...
52xMax wrote:If people use that phrase to tiptoe around the fact that they believe that reason has to be some kind of cosmic or supernatural force (sentient or not, etc, etc) well just say so.

I'm not entirely sure that's what even the most fundamentalist believers mean by that, though.

Some people do mean it that way. The church that I was raised in made it very explicitly clear that everything happened because of God as a part of his plan, (and they made it explicitly clear that that included the Holocaust and 9/11). And also the whole Romans 8:28 "and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." I'm not sure how prominent that particular view is, and I realize that it differs from yours, but I thought I'd point it out.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Learned Nand » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:21 am

William Lane Craig takes this idea to the extreme, and so spends a good portion of his time arguing that the various Biblical murders of children were just. He called the Sandy Hook massacre a "Christmas reminder." But worst of all, he had an awesome beard, and he shaved it.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby D-LOGAN » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:51 pm

Dr. Ambiguous wrote: The church that I was raised in made it very explicitly clear that everything happened because of God as a part of his plan, (and they made it explicitly clear that that included the Holocaust and 9/11).


Here's the thing I don't get about that though, what if I was to start worshipping Satan and started burning down churches and openly mocking God and burning Bibles and .....I dunno ....punching nuns or something? Wouldn't that also, in those "Everything that happens is God's will" People's view be a part of God's plan too? So by worshipping Satan, who if I recall correctly isn't on good terms with God these days, I'd be by their own viewpoint, by doing what God wanted me to do just by doing what I'm doing...... and they'd have to sit there and take it!

If everything is God's will, then aren't we all free to do whatever we want all the time? Jaysus we'd all run of peanut butter and Penguins would be extinct within a week, and that would just be my influence!!!!
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Re: What's your religious experience?

Postby Learned Nand » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:29 pm

D-LOGAN wrote:Jaysus we'd all run of peanut butter and Penguins would be extinct within a week, and that would just be my influence!!!!

I understand you already have quite a head start on these things.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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