Is there any point to learning math?

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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby CarrieVS » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:33 am

Calculators take the tedious bits out of maths. Maths and arithmetic are not synonyms.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby Learned Nand » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:34 am

I was going to say; I am impressed that Windy has a calculator that can prove the Reimann-Zeta hypothesis and factorize numbers in polynomial time.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby CarrieVS » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:58 am

You put it much better than I did.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby DoglovingJim » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:59 pm

aviel wrote:I was going to say; I am impressed that Windy has a calculator that can prove the Reimann-Zeta hypothesis and factorize numbers in polynomial time.


Out of curiosity how does an average Joe utilize those things in the real world though? Or is that only useful for some nerd with blackboards completely covered with chalk equations?

(Also, what are those things? Never bloody heard of them before)
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby CarrieVS » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:05 pm

If you prove the Riemann-Zeta hypothesis, you get a million dollars. That could be really useful.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby DoglovingJim » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:17 pm

CarrieVS wrote:If you prove the Riemann-Zeta hypothesis, you get a million dollars. That could be really useful.

Now this is the sort of things that could get a kid interested in math, sadly though now it's beyond my times and even comprehension.

A correct solution to any of the problems results in a US $1,000,000 prize (sometimes called a Millennium Prize) being awarded by the institute. The Poincaré conjecture was solved by Grigori Perelman, but he declined the award in 2010.

I respect this Grigori Perelman guy. Of course I respect many Russians and people with facial hair regardless but this guy has earned a deeper respect, his got integrity (if that's the right word).
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby 52xMax » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:42 pm

With respect to the "calculators do math" thing, I will add that even if/when computers do most of the heavy-lifting, they still require programming, and for the time being, it is humans who do that. And in order for someone to input, say, how to split a check when eating out and what kind of tip should one leave, it is necessary to understand what the process involves...and how generous you're feeling too, I guess.


As someone who's done his fair share of jobs in the service industry, I will say that if you're in the Mr. Pink school of thought, you can go fuck yourself.

Going back to Tess' original question, I will say that math helps people to develop both abstract and rational thought, because math is pure logic. Even those complex branches of math which involve imaginary numbers and tedious algebra and calculations that the average lay person (or humanities major) won't understand, those are derivations (he he, math puns) of the same logical processes taken one or several steps further. The results obtained through those calculations are testable and objective. 2 + 2 will always equal 4 no matter how many times you do it in all the different ways you can, and 2 + 2 will equal 4 in all languages, in all planets...hell, even if the laws of physics changed, 2 + 2 will still equal 4, because it is an abstract that works outside the universe.

Knowing that, and understanding it, there are many, many ways we can apply those thought processes in real life. Mostly to deal with money (which, I don't know if you've noticed, but it's kind of a big deal in our society) and measures (like knowing how much gas it will take you to drive from A to B and how much it'll cost you, at what temperature you need to bake a cake for how long, how many calories it has and how much exercise it'd take to burn them out, just to name a few), but also more complex, like those nerds who earned millions playing Blackjack, or the algorithms we use everyday (mostly done by machines) and that we take for granted because we grew in a society whose reaped the benefits of discoveries in math to improve everything, from agriculture to navigation to space exploration and the internet.

Here is a list (compiled by educators and curated by NASA) of practical examples of math used in everyday life. It goes way beyond the very basic examples I quoted, as it explains things like the doppler effect, how GPS works, and why tailgatting is dangerous.

DoglovingJim wrote:I respect this Grigori Perelman guy. Of course I respect many Russians and people with facial hair regardless but this guy has earned a deeper respect, he's got integrity (if that's the right word).


You might say that a moral compass is ∫ for a good scientist.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby Windy » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:38 pm

CarrieVS wrote:Calculators take the tedious bits out of maths. Maths and arithmetic are not synonyms.


Anything that humans know how to do, you can program a calculator to do it faster.

aviel wrote:I was going to say; I am impressed that Windy has a calculator that can prove the Reimann-Zeta hypothesis and factorize numbers in polynomial time.


Humans can't do that either.

DoglovingJim wrote:Out of curiosity how does an average Joe utilize those things in the real world though?


None. Because no one figured out how to do those things yet.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:02 pm

Windy wrote:
CarrieVS wrote:Calculators take the tedious bits out of maths. Maths and arithmetic are not synonyms.


Anything that humans know how to do, you can program a calculator to do it faster.

This simply isn't true; it's not even true in the field of mathematics. We can't, for example, program a computer to figure out the Poincare conjecture.

Humans can't do that either.

Or we just haven't done it yet. But if you want examples of things that humans had to do that computers can't, there are plenty of historical problems you can take a look at; Fermat's Last Theorem, for instance. If you have a calculator that can prove that, I'd be delighted to see it.

You seem to seriously misunderstand the kinds of things that the field of mathematics is interested in. By and large, it isn't interested in mere computation, at least not once the algorithm has been determined. This is because, as you point out, a calculator can do that. Mathematics is interested in proving things, i.e., seeing what truths existing mathematical truths and axioms imply. Computers don't do that well.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby Malfeasinator » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:35 pm

Also, computers are always going to have some level of error involved, like rounding extra decimal bits, and those can get out of hand. If you use software like Maple or Maxima or some other computer algebra system, you can have errors with asymptotes being drawn on a graph as if they are part of a function (a totally vertical line can't be part of a function), and sometimes a program will give you an answer for a derivative at some point when, in reality, it should be undefined.

There are all kinds of wonky issues that you'd have to be on the lookout for with computers. They are, at best, like a sorcerer's apprentice, but you can't trust the apprentice to get it all right all the time.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby Windy » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:27 am

I trust humans even less than computers. At least I know a computer isn't actively plotting my downfall.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby Tesseracts » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:33 am

Windy wrote:I trust humans even less than computers. At least I know a computer isn't actively plotting my downfall.

HE'S ONTO US! ABORT MISSION WINDFALL.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby Learned Nand » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:50 am

Windy wrote:I trust humans even less than computers. At least I know a computer isn't actively plotting my downfall.

Who mentioned trust?

Malfeasinator wrote:Also, computers are always going to have some level of error involved, like rounding extra decimal bits, and those can get out of hand.

These are not errors inherent to computers. This is only because the programs you've used don't consider that kind of precision necessary for their function. It's trivially easy to get rid of floating point rounding errors; just don't use floating point numbers. Essentially the only thing that will cost you is a bit of RAM.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
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He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby NathanLoiselle » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:08 am

Windy wrote:I trust humans even less than computers. At least I know a computer isn't actively plotting my downfall.


NOT ACCORDING TO STEPHEN HAWKING!
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Re: Is there any point to learning math?

Postby 52xMax » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:15 am

NathanLoiselle wrote:
Windy wrote:I trust humans even less than computers. At least I know a computer isn't actively plotting my downfall.


NOT ACCORDING TO STEPHEN HAWKING!


Those comments are just to keep appearances. Everyone knows that both Hawking and Elon Musk are working with the robots. Hell, Hawking is already transitioning into a cyborg.
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