Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

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Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:59 am

Right, this is research for a novel.

So for those who weren't scared off by the title, I just want to let you know that we're getting very deep into biochemistry, as well as biochemistry that is hypothetical (as in, biochemistry that is technically possible but doesn't actually exist on Earth).

I've got enough knowledge on biochemistry to understand how damn near everything in the human body works. However, for one of my books, I'm experimenting with a species that has a different biochemistry, and I chose boron. It's the one with the least complexity (given the other options are arsenic and silicon), but I wanna make sure I got this right, because Wikipedia can only do so much.

Basically, whereas the body constructs chains of carbon (mainly through glycogen production) and requires oxygen for cellular respiration (ATP production, especially). In the case of Boron, that element would construct those chains instead, but still require different elements for respiration.

Anyone got enough knowledge on this subject to confirm/fix my hypothesis?
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:05 am

I don't think you have to worry too much. I was watching Godzilla and Ken Watanabe said it fed on radiation. We have organisms that feed on radiation in real life, and they're plants. They made enough money for a sequel. I'm glad you're so dedicated to scientific accuracy, but either way, I don't think you have to worry.
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby CarrieVS » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Apparently boron-nitrogen compounds would replace the hyrdrocarbons that are the basis of carbon-based life. So you'd need nitrogen from somewhere. Hydrogen (probably in boron and boron-nitrogen compounds, as in carbon-based life, not on its own) is also going to be needed. Ammonia (NH3) would likely take the place of water. So I guess we'd need a boron-nitrogen-hydrogen equivalent of glucose, and probably some nitrogen - in what form I don't know. Nitrogen gas is famously inert, though there are biologically-catalysed reactions of it (Nitrogen fixation) - reacting to form a simpler boron-nitrogen compound and ammonia in place of carbon dioxide and water.

I don't have time to find out any specific possible reactions just now, but basically replace oxygen with nitrogen? And come up with some way for a planet to have enough boron (and maybe also little carbon) for it to be the basis of life, as it's usually rare because of the way the element is formed.
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:10 pm

Very good link.

Well, pure boron is just rare on Earth/our solar system, and could theoretically exist aplenty elsewhere. As for Nitrogen, that's not a big stumbling block, considering it's one of the four major elements our bodies are made up with.
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Marcuse » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Apparently, borane compounds are dangerously explosive in Earth-like atmospheres, so that might be something to consider when writing them. Also they seem to have an affinity for lower temperature environments, in hypothesis of course.
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:28 pm

Alright, I think I've got an idea on how to make it work. I'm not actually planning on getting this in depth with it in the novel, but want a good enough understanding that I don't misspeak somewhere in there.
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:02 pm

According to this site, Boron based life would have to avoid water, lest they be turned into a polymer. Also, boron based plant life will burn with a green hue, and explode if exposed to oxygen if it's rotting.
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:30 pm

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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby CarrieVS » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:33 pm

Well the scarcity of boron is apparently due its being formed by a different process than more common elements, so I would think it would be scarce in most places. Also it's a fact that the observable universe is generally all very similar - though no-one knows, for obvious reasons, about anywhere outside that, if you weren't planning on setting it in a universe/part of the universe that has us in it. And I'm not the only person to think it would be scarce on most planets, it was mentioned in at least one of the 'hypothetical biochemistries' pages I found. I'm sure a boron-rich planet is possible, but some sort of nod to its being unusual might be warranted. Up to you.


They'd find our atmosphere toxic - not surprising, it's really quite remarkable that most life on earth thrives in a high-oxygen atmoshpere, let alone needs it, it's a nasty chemical. And a planet full of water.. ugh. Plus we're so close to the sun and with such a runaway greenhouse effect as to be uninhabitably hot. They'd probably have difficulty conceiving of life that could exist in such a place.

They'll have evolved on a cold, boron-rich planet with plentiful nitrogen, and possibly little carbon. There won't be much oxygen in the atmosphere anyway as boron-based life isn't likely to produce it from any analogue of photosynthesis. Being as it's a cold world, any naturally-occurring liquid will be something other than water. Saturn's moon Titan is believed to have hydrocarbon seas, for instance.
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:08 pm

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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:56 pm

So, basically, they'd need envirosuits filled with pockets of nitrogen and nitrogen tanks to interact with us, could not survive above freezing, have to drink liquid methane or hydrocarbon to survive, and could be easily killed by having water thrown at them, which will essentially turn them into some sort of plastic (which could possibly be harvested?).
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:57 am

Ericthebearjew wrote:So, basically, they'd need envirosuits filled with pockets of nitrogen.

That's basically where I'm going with it. I don't actually plan for them to come live on a planet, or anything. Part of the whole thing I'm thinking is they'll be a very small but long lived population of only thirty-thousand or so, small in stature and with extremely slow metabolisms. They'll get found surveying planets for Boron to avoid having to use their planet's own supply any more than strictly necessary. Since the good guys are constantly on diplomatic missions of sorts, they'll be negotiating for...(cheez-its?) in exchange for a percentage of discovered Boron. At least, that's my kinda vague plan thus far.

Though I'm looking into the possibility of them having gained more recent stockpiles of Boron through fission, but that brings along with it the issue of radiation and I'm not entirely sure how an isotope would interact with biological chain molecules of the same element, though I believe all that would matter is whether it was correctly ionized. So I'm trying to find a way around those issues.

I guess what I'm saying is that cheezits > rare natural resources
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Re: Research Question Concerning Hypothetical Biochemistry

Postby Jack Road » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:03 am

I'm sure you've seen this.
http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... _life.html

Talking about boron and how much it loves nitrogen and liquid solvent ammonia. Please excuse me, I can only barely understand biochemistry if I insist on shamelessly anthropomorphising everything.

There are plenty of other sites out there talking about the idea of boron-based life forms. Most of them talk about the relationship it would likely have with ammonia, which could very well be a solvent it would use in replacement of water. As ammonia goes, it really would work well as a "life" solvent, if it was in a place suitable to its liquid form.

So a biosphere based on ammonia would likely exist at temperatures or pressures much different than earth. There would be no oxygen, because he and ammonia don't get along. Probably subterranean, instead of surface level, because of ammonia's low vaporization temperature. The pressure ideal for it could be found on a large planet's moon.

So how about this, on a large gas giant's moon, a subterranean species of boron-based life forms? As a jump off point. Perhaps an aside on how a massive chunk of matter with a high ratio of boron managed to find itself in the gravitational pull of this gas giant. You can play around with the numbers, there are a lot of them.

If you use it, all I ask is one pun from someone on the association between "boron" and "boring"

Perhaps a catty exchange

"Captain, I'm detecting boron-based life forms"
"Well I'm detecting a boring-based life form that needs to get laid."

Or "Boron, boron, boron, that is all you ever talk about. You're boron me to death."

Or, after years trying to research this curious new life-form "Oh, boron, you moron!, Its boron!"
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