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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:56 pm

How I felt when I saw somebody had posted in this thread:

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How I felt when I realized it wasn't a question:

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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:18 pm

I have a question. What do you do if you're giving an important lecture and your ass suddenly starts itching?
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby JamishT » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:59 pm

What are some of the most common misconceptions about the Industrial Revolution?
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:27 am

DamianaRaven wrote:I have a question. What do you do if you're giving an important lecture and your ass suddenly starts itching?


I make a Student Assistant scratch it.

JamishT wrote:What are some of the most common misconceptions about the Industrial Revolution?


The two largest misconceptions about the IR are probably that everyone was in favour of the industrialization and that it happened everywhere at the same time.

The opposition came from a bunch of different places. The English Luddites destroyed factories and equipment, French weavers in Lyon and other places tried to shut down textile factories, that kind of thing. The resistance mostly came from people who were skilled laborers and were losing their jobs to factory workers. In general, governments were in favour of industrialization, and many of the opposition groups were killed or imprisoned.

As for the timeline, people don't seem to realize that the IR really started in England and spread from there. First it went across the channel to France, and from there it spread to Germany, Northern Italy, parts of Spain, and so forth. But England was largely industrialized before the rest of Europe, which played a major role in their ability to build their Empire in the 19th century.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby JamishT » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:35 am

Andropov4 wrote:In general, governments were in favour of industrialization, and many of the opposition groups were killed or imprisoned.


Wait, what? That's a part I have never heard about...
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:44 am

JamishT wrote:
Andropov4 wrote:In general, governments were in favour of industrialization, and many of the opposition groups were killed or imprisoned.


Wait, what? That's a part I have never heard about...


Yup. The English hanged dozens of Luddites, and the French police and military had a violent battle with the Canuts in Lyon in 1831.They had to call up an army of 20,000 men to retake the city (which surrendered in the face of the quite large army). The Canuts ended up revolting twice more, both times over wages and work conditions in factories.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby JamishT » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:00 am

I assume the IR changed the political landscape quite a lot too. Can you go into that a little bit? Like was there a political party that supported the Luddites and became obsolete or something?
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:11 am

There weren't enough Luddites to have formed a political party. For the most part, institutional opposition came from the now-enfeebled conservative elements. This was the old aristocracy, which opposed the IR mostly on the basis of simply not liking that the world was changing, and also because the factories and the money and political clout that went with the money were not owned by them, but instead the fairly new middle class, which was powering the liberal takeover of Europe. So in a certain respect, the IR contributed greatly to increased liberalism in Europe. On the other hand, it also fostered the growth of Republican, Socialist, and Communist groups and theory, and caused a great deal of rebellion and upheaval, for the most part culminating in the revolts of 1848, which occurred all over the place, but had little immediate impact.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby JamishT » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:30 am

Exactly the type of information I was wanting. Thanks, Andro!
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby DamianaRaven » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:41 am

Andropov4 wrote:The Canuts ended up revolting twice more, both times over wages and work conditions in factories.


What was it that finally led to the elimination of the blatant human rights violations going on during the Industrial Revolution?
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:53 am

DamianaRaven wrote:
What was it that finally led to the elimination of the blatant human rights violations going on during the Industrial Revolution?


To a certain degree, it was simple awareness. Books like The Jungle and the infamous muckrakers of the early 20th century made it much harder for everyone else to ignore the shitty conditions factory workers lived and worked in. There was also increasing literacy and education, and thus political involvement, for factory workers and their children (who of course, tended to end up being factory workers). Additionally, the creation of unions and the use of coordinated action could put more pressure on the government and the factory owners than ever had been before; previously, the foreman just hired the next desperate guy in line. Now, the next desperate guy could at least survive a little while thanks to the union, and it became much more difficult to simply fire any difficult employees (or those who were simply too worn down by the hellacious conditions and schedule).

Basically, greater public awareness of the abuses, combined with increased political awareness amongst the workers themselves, caused a lot of the reforms that led to factory workers not being worked to death by the time they hit 50 for little pay and no benefits.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby DashaBlade » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:07 am

So, to make up for disappointing you for not having a question, I spent all day trying to think of one. I'm not a historian myself, just a history hobbyist, so I tried hard to think of a good question. I thought of a question, but it's probably not all that good.

The Articles of Confederation. All my history/political science teachers/professors mentioned them, but none of them really did much more than brush them aside with "It didn't work because politics". So, here's my question: As a historian who specializes in the era, do you think the Articles of Confederation could have worked, if the colonies/states had gotten on board with them? (and a speculation-type question) Would a government of that type instead of the strong Federalist government the Constitution created have averted the US Civil War, or would the country not have survived the War of 1812?
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:18 am

DashaBlade wrote:
The Articles of Confederation. All my history/political science teachers/professors mentioned them, but none of them really did much more than brush them aside with "It didn't work because politics". So, here's my question: As a historian who specializes in the era, do you think the Articles of Confederation could have worked, if the colonies/states had gotten on board with them? (and a speculation-type question) Would a government of that type instead of the strong Federalist government the Constitution created have averted the US Civil War, or would the country not have survived the War of 1812?


The Articles of Confederation lacked a way to actually acquire funds or enforce the laws it passed, which is mostly why it failed. It did essentially nothing as a governing body, since legislation was difficult to pass and utterly toothless when it was. There wasn't much to get on board with.

I think it could have survived the War of 1812, provided the states cooperated to some degree, which seems likely, considering how recent the Revolution was and how screwed each state would be on its own. As for the Civil War, it might not have happened, and certainly wouldn't have occurred in the same way. The southern states wouldn't have needed to fear the outlawing of slavery (most decisions required unanimous approval from the states), and even if they did, the federal government under the Articles couldn't have enforced it. On the other hand, as the states moved further apart culturally, I would think there would be less and less reason to remain so loosely bound together, and we might very well have seen a more peaceful dissolution of the articles resulting in multiple nations being created.

EDIT: I'm not an Americanist, so this comes from something of a less expert view. I would consult someone with greater expertise in the situation for a better answer.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:26 am

DashaBlade wrote: So, here's my question: As a historian who specializes in the era, do you think the Articles of Confederation could have worked, if the colonies/states had gotten on board with them?

The states did get on board with them. Here's a video you might find useful:



Anyway, not really surprising that the Canuts surrendered. An army premised on the philosophy that technology is bad is probably not going to be an effective army.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby JamishT » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:42 am

aviel wrote: An army premised on the philosophy that technology is bad is probably not going to be an effective army.


Tell that to the Amish Mafia.
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