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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby WaitYAmIHere » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:51 pm

Well, alright then. I have heard several statements about "battles that saved/defined Western civilization" mostly about either Salamis or Chalons. So my question, which is only tangentially related, is:

Do you believe that Western civilization is a series of moments, upon which the entire system can turn, or fall?

Or would you say Western civilization is a series of ideal, which would not be undone by any particular moment?

I know that the battles in question, as well as the study of all of Western Civ, are out of your stated specialty so feel free to ignore the question if you want.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:18 pm

A...a question?

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Alright, calm yourself and answer the question, asshole.

WaitYAmIHere wrote:Do you believe that Western civilization is a series of moments, upon which the entire system can turn, or fall?

Or would you say Western civilization is a series of ideal, which would not be undone by any particular moment?


I'm allowed to say neither, right? Because I'm definitely saying neither.

Firstly, there a number of different ways to view history. I happen to belong to the school that sees history as at least somewhat cyclical (mostly because NOBODY LISTENS TO US AND APPRECIATES HISTORY would seem to be the incredibly self-serving subtext of this position). Others, though, see history as the story of great men and women who changed the world through the force of their will and the singularity of their vision, whilst others see history as a story of popular movements, declaring that great things are achieved not through singular genius but the collective genius of the masses (ignoring one of the chiefest truths of mankind, "the masses are asses"). So how someone views history itself could definitely affect how they answer this question.

Secondly, I'd like to say that I'm not sure Western Civilization can fall, at this time. In previous generations, I would have called it far-fetched, but conceivable; in the modern world, however, I think there is an argument to be made that Western Civilization is world civilization. Western values are growing in popularity across the globe as the powers of the Far East, China and Japan, slowly westernize. Polls show the people of the Middle East are increasingly in favor of western ideals like free speech and democracy. Short of an apocalyptic event, I'm not certain that the destruction of Western Civilization is even possible.

But, I still really like this question. So I'm going to pretend nothing I just said matters and answer it anyway, because that's what heroes do.

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I'm more inclined to say that the history of Western Civilization is defined by ideas and movements and their slow progression than I am to say it's a series of pivotal events. Whilst a number of events could certainly have drastically changed the world today had they gone the other way (Nazis win WWII, the First Crusade is defeated at Antioch, Hannibal takes Rome, Noah's boat springs a leak), I'm not sure most of them would have had a disastrous impact on the fluid and ever-changing concept of Western Civilization. Sure, if Germany wins in WWII, we get a race-based society that looks down on brown people and glorifies one ethnic group over another. But isn't that really just a more extreme version of the world we live in today?

I'm not saying that the world couldn't have been massively different than it turned out today. But I don't think that the world would be completely unrecognisable if a handful of events had taken a different turn. Sometimes, what looks like a big twist would have changed little at all in the long run. Now obviously, if we changed a large number of important historical events, we would likely end up with a new reality that looked almost completely foreign. But that seems to be somewhat outside the scope of this question.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Bert » Tue May 13, 2014 10:31 pm

My question relates to that peculiar institution, slavery.

Basically I'd like to know where it stood in Europe from the fall of the Roman Empire until the advent of the Atlantic slave trade to the New World. I don't really remember it being referenced at all in school. I know it was prevalent in the Arab world during that time and that serfdom wasn't exactly free labor but it's hard to imagine that slavery, which played such a huge role in Rome, simply ended with the empire.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Wed May 14, 2014 4:38 am

Bertman wrote:My question relates to that peculiar institution, slavery.

Basically I'd like to know where it stood in Europe from the fall of the Roman Empire until the advent of the Atlantic slave trade to the New World. I don't really remember it being referenced at all in school. I know it was prevalent in the Arab world during that time and that serfdom wasn't exactly free labor but it's hard to imagine that slavery, which played such a huge role in Rome, simply ended with the empire.


The short answer is it didn't.

The long form is a trifle more complicated. Firstly, the fall of Rome wasn't technically the end of the Roman Empire- the Byzantines continued for some time, and slavery was popular within the Empire until its own downfall. In the rest of Europe, the question of slavery is more complex. A lot of the barbarian tribes practiced forms of slavery, and it remained popular particularly in Northern Europe for many years; the Vikings were known to take the occasional slave, for instance. But slavery declined quickly in large part due to Christian objections to it. The early Catholic church was rather opposed to slavery, and thus so were many Catholic kings. The real death knell of slavery in most of Western Europe was the rise of Charlemagne, who of course outlawed it in the territories he captured, as well as popularizing Catholicism everywhere he went. So Western Europe was largely free of actual slavery, if not serfdom, for much of the Medieval era. However, Eastern Europe wasn't nearly as lucky; most groups who moved into the area had a history of slave ownership they weren't willing to give up. The various Turkic groups, the Mongols, the Byzantines and the Russians all had slaves, and this became part of the fabric of the region for a long time. Slav is the root of the modern word slave for a reason.

So, to really sum this up, slavery didn't simply evaporate after the fall of Rome, but it did decline fairly sharply in Western Europe, even as it continued for some time in both Eastern and Northern Europe. Oh, and Southern Europe had its hands in the honey pot; slavery was present in Spain, of course, and many of the Italian city states were involved in the slave trade, even if slavery was outlawed in the cities proper. Indeed, the Mediterranean slave trade even ended a Crusade once. The Children's Crusade, after floundering when they reached the southern coast of France (they had believed God would part the sea and allow them to march to the Holy Land), booked passage upon ships going out of Marseilles. Unfortunately, the children and their other followers were then taken to the Barbary coast and sold into slavery*. Western Europe may have been mostly slave free, but it was involved in the slave trade to some degree.

*The Children's Crusade is actually a bit more complicated than this, but it deserves its own post if anyone is interested in knowing more.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby LaChaise » Wed May 14, 2014 8:19 am

Andropov4 wrote:The real death knell of slavery in most of Western Europe was the rise of Charlemagne, who of course outlawed it in the territories he captured, as well as popularizing Catholicism everywhere he went. So Western Europe was largely free of actual slavery, if not serfdom, for much of the Medieval era.


Regarding France, the transition from slavery to serfdom is mostly due to two other people. Bathilde, Clovis II's wife, queen of the Franks, who used to be a slave herself and pretty much abolished slavery on Frank territory. Louis X le Hutin, king of France reformed serfdom by allowing serfs to buy their freedom. This was absolutely not an enlightened decision though, since it was to pay for the war of Flanders. (Well don't expect a humanistic person if their moniker "Le Hutin" means "The Stubborn" or "The Quarreler")
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby 52xMax » Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 pm

LaChaise wrote:This was absolutely not an enlightened decision though, since it was to pay for the war of Flanders. (Well don't expect a humanistic person if their moniker "Le Hutin" means "The Stubborn" or "The Quarreler")


Stupid, sexy Flanders.

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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Bert » Thu May 15, 2014 2:32 am

Andropov4 wrote:*The Children's Crusade is actually a bit more complicated than this, but it deserves its own post if anyone is interested in knowing more.


Alright, I'll bite. Actually this looks interesting, as the Wikipedia entry mentions what really happened is in dispute. So I'd like to hear your take.

Side question, which would a career academic generally choose? The opportunity to weigh in on a controversial subject in their field for an interested audience, or sex?
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Thu May 15, 2014 4:15 am

Bertman wrote:Alright, I'll bite. Actually this looks interesting, as the Wikipedia entry mentions what really happened is in dispute. So I'd like to hear your take.


Well, there are two separate events that make up the Children's Crusade, though the story is basically the same; the reality is a little different from those accounts. In both accounts (which differ almost exclusively on the nationality of the child), Jesus comes to a child in a dream and tells him that he must go to Jerusalem and he and the other children who follow him will be able to convert the wicked Muslims through sheer force of innocence. Both accounts say that the child's prophecy included the Mediterranean Sea parting and allowing them to march unmolested to the Holy Land. However, once they get there, both are stymied by the sea's refusal to get out of the way. At this point, merchants offer free passage to anyone who wishes to come aboard, and then take them to North Africa to be sold into slavery.

Those accounts, one French and one German, both originate from a real phenomenon, but are unlikely to be faithful retellings of actual events. In reality, these stories are more indicative of the plight facing many poor would-be Crusaders or pilgrims who were desperate to get to the Holy Land and preyed upon by less-than-upstanding merchants and pirates. Getting to the Holy Land without being part of a major Crusading force was quite difficult, and this was merely one of many perils encountered along the way by the European peasantry. The stories likely developed as a kind of cautionary tale for pilgrims about accepting free rides from guys with suspicious-looking facial hair or an unhealthy obsession with gold. In general, the poor of the world fared...um...poorly when they went on Crusade; they couldn't afford good equipment or training that would help them survive, and no-one was interested in capturing prisoners who couldn't be ransomed. Add to that rampant brigandage, highway robbery, scams, and unscrupulous boat owners, and just getting to Jerusalem alive was difficult enough, much less surviving the trip back.

So in summation, it's unlikely the Children's Crusade actually happened, but similar events certainly did.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Learned Nand » Thu May 15, 2014 4:48 am

Given the opportunity to alter a telling of historical events, you think they might omit the part where they expected the sea to part for them and it didn't.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Thu May 15, 2014 5:05 am

Bertman wrote:Side question, which would a career academic generally choose? The opportunity to weigh in on a controversial subject in their field for an interested audience, or sex?


The correct answer to this question is

Spoiler: show
Who is the sex with? The answer to that question would determine the answer to your own.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby DamianaRaven » Thu May 15, 2014 5:03 pm

Shouldn't that read,

Spoiler: show
With whom is the sex?
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Jack Road » Thu May 15, 2014 5:12 pm

Is it true that drums originated in Africa, and were made popular in the US after we began importing slaves from Africa?
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Andropov4 » Fri May 16, 2014 2:32 pm

JackRoad wrote:Is it true that drums originated in Africa, and were made popular in the US after we began importing slaves from Africa?


Okay, the reason this took so long to answer is because I honestly have no freaking clue. Which meant asking someone who maybe does. And according to Mr. SomebodyWhoMaybeDoes, drums are not necessarily all African in origin. Drums can apparently be found in basically every culture the world over, although methods of construction and use can vary a bit. But specifically in reference to snare drums, which he and I think are easily the most popular kind of drum used in music today, those are not African; they are based on a European design called the tabor from the medieval period. The earliest bass drums we know of are Turkish. So I guess that no, drums did not originate in Africa, and they were most certainly not popularized by slaves, though I would guess that certain styles of drum or drumming were. If anyone knows differently, though, please correct me; I'm way outside my expertise on this one.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 16, 2014 3:18 pm

I looked on wikipedia and it basically seems to agree. Drums are old. They're mentioned in the Tanakh, which was written about 2000 years before the atlantic slave trade, and we've found really ancient ones in China and elsewhere. If drums were invented solely in Africa, that'd only be because we invented them before humans migrated out of Africa. I have no idea where your friend got that idea, Jack.
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Re: Ask a Historian

Postby DashaBlade » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:31 pm

Andropov4 wrote:Don't be afraid to write long responses. The whole point of this thread is discussion, and if being an historian has taught me anything, it's that all discussion should be as long-winded as possible.


I have no questions, I just want to share something I made as a filler for a friend's webcomic ten years ago:

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