Altruism: is it a scam?

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Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Eternauta » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:51 am

I mean, is it even worth it on an individual level? Does karma exist and operate at a material level, is it just a fell good sensation and a justification for our not acting in the most selfish, materially profitable way?

Is altruism praised and appreciated by others because it's a behaviour that tends to favour them? Is it altruism if we do good deeds expecting something in return? Is altruism benefiting social groups (a view the current capitalist system is arguably against) vs the individual committing it?

It could all boil down to zero vs non-zero sum game sort of debate, but what do you think about this on multiple levels - social, moral, religious, behavioral. Does it even exist?

One guy tried to explain altruism in mathematical terms, and ended up killing himself:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/altruistic-equations-that-killed-a-good-man-1358399.html

Is that reductionist equation all there is to altruism? Will we ever break free from the "rational agent" or the even bleaker "selfish gene" dogmas at the base of our understanding of morals, and could that be achieved with anything short of a complete paradigm shift of the social sciences, possibly disentangling them from hard science?

All I'm saying is: repent from your sins, the end is nigh.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:34 pm

I read a study a few months ago that I'm never going to be able to find again about the evolution of altruism in humans, but it turns out there are a variety of situations in which altruism is evolutionarily beneficial, and it's necessary to the collaborative abilities that have made human society possible. Wikipedia also has a nice list of evolutionary explanations of altruism.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Marcuse » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:36 pm

From what you have posted, and the link attached, I would say that I consider universal altruism to be largely a myth. The definition of altruism is:

al·tru·ism [al-troo-iz-uhm]
noun
1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others ( opposed to egoism ).
2. Animal Behavior . behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

I think the second definition is more appropriate, as truly altruistic behaviour tends to be that which harms the individual but benefits another/a group. It can exist in a limited fashion as a motivator of social behaviour, but as the example shows, when universalised into a principle (as in the first definition) it tends towards self-destructive behaviour.

It seems then that there is a biological imperative that promotes limited altruism within a group, but the kind of universal altruism promoted by many ethical systems is effectively unsustainable long-term. Like many things, it is best to maintain a balance of altruism and egoism in order to be in a position to be altruistic.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:40 pm

Marcuse wrote:Like many things, it is best to maintain a balance of altruism and egoism in order to be in a position to be altruistic.

Oh, this is a position I like. I've often advocated prioritizing oneself first in a moral system (though, because I'm not an objectivist, I don't mean only prioritizing oneself), but that was largely because of the unsustainability of universal altruism. This is also an excellent reason, particularly when you consider the ability of the extremely rich to donate to charity.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Marcuse » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:48 pm

Yeah, it's fairly basic that in order to help others you need to be in a position to help yourself first. It doesn't mean you're never altruistic but it means being discerning about when you are altruistic to ensure you can.

There are certain hits you can take and ones you cannot. It makes sense from a self-preservation perspective to not commit altruistic acts that would harm you to the point of endangerment. An example would be donating your rent money to charity, meaning you end up homeless. In that case, how can you continue to be charitable if you have lost everything?

In my opinion, Altruism and Egoism are not mutually exclusive, they are more in the field of a "push" and a "pull". Sometimes you push, but other times you have to pull otherwise you can't push any more.

*edit

Actually I can sum it up better with a question: How does one who has nothing, give?
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby ButtChocolate » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:35 pm

Marcuse wrote:Actually I can sum it up better with a question: How does one who has nothing, give?


Wow. I thought that was a great question, Marcuse. I immediately went Googling to see what I could find. I came up with these two stories, and I just wanted to toss them into the mix to see if you guys thought they were examples of altruism or not.
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/05/02/homeless-man-77-scrounges-up-cash-from-strangers-to-help-others-in-need/
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/homeless-man-delivers-baby-truck-stop-article-1.1184505

In one case, the homeless man who helps deliver the baby (second link) just leaves and is seen again by no one. According to the article at least, he doesn't stick around for a handout or to be interviewed. He doesn't seem to be after anything of immediate benefit from that description. I mean, maybe he's going to show up at that woman's home in 18 years and say "You owe me your son's life. Now give me your son's hand in marriage!" but that's not likely (though we should probably check back here for the next couple of decades to see how it pans out, just to be safe...) True, he could be a vicious roadside hatchet-murderer with a softspot for babies, but that's probably a long shot compared to the answer that sometimes people- even those with nothing to give- look for opportunities to do right, even when it seemingly doesn't benefit them in any way.

The first article is just about a homeless marine who collects money to give to a shelter for other homeless. He benefits from the shelter, but like the woman in the article says, that money would stretch a ways longer if he just kept it for himself. Maybe a clue is that he's a former marine, where the idea of self-sacrifice was burned into him.

I like your thoughts about it being a push/pull motivation, and I think it's all the same thing that makes us tell a stranger that their wallet just fell out of their pocket, or hold a door for an old lady with a cane. Yes, it's not diving in front of busses to save people, but maybe it's a similar motivation- doing something that in no way benefits us directly. Then again, maybe it IS Egoism- maybe we do such things to reinforce our own self-image.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Eternauta » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Marcuse wrote:Actually I can sum it up better with a question: How does one who has nothing, give?


While Butts expanded on this on the individual level, I'd like to look at your question from a systemic level, where it raises many questions.

In a way, the question is purely hypothetical, as even a man on his deathbed can decide to pull a smile for the people around him, even if it takes effort and maybe gives him pain, so I can't really think of anyone who wouldn't be in a position to give.

Starting to look at it as a systemic issue, how does altruism influence the allocation of power, intended as capability to change things, whether for yourself or others, does it hinder the chances we have to gain power to give? The systemic allocation of resources and power could determine the impact and frequency of altruistic acts by rewarding altruistic acts with increased resources and power,

Hypothetically in the mid to long term such a mechanism will increase the power among people of an altruistic tendency, but that's a problematic mechanism to even envision.

The closest thing to a systemic reward mechanism for altruism would be reputation. It is not by chance that the most flamboyant gestures of altruism (charity and so on) are made often by people in the public eye, VIPs, showbiz personalities, famous businessmen and, similarly, big corporations. The act has a major resonance, and reputation at that level is as good as money, many times you could say those gestures are almost directly monetized.

On the other end of the spectrum, the systemic view can also partially explain why people in big cities are usually ruder and more selfish to each other than small town folks: there is very little chance that your acts will be noted by people who are or going to be relevant in your life, so you don't need to build a reputation, so a big urban system of society tends to lessen the importance and the rewards of altruism.

So, why who has everything doesn't give more ? Why one who gives has nothing? Is there a way, or is it desirable, to make altruism universally rewarding? Who benefits by the present situation? Is it in society's/people in need/powerful people interest to keep it as it is or to find ways to change it?

Can the resourceful, powerful person who can and does give get to be in that position by giving along the way? And doesn't giving when arrived to that level just cement the status quo, undermining systemic change?

PS Butts, after reading your signature I am now gay and will marry you, with or without your consent. The only issue I have with it is that that statement would have turned it in a much less awesome movie
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Last edited by Eternauta on Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:15 pm

I'm not sure that incentivized altruism counts as altruism.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Marcuse » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:49 pm

aviel wrote:I'm not sure that incentivized altruism counts as altruism


Got to agree with avi here, the definition of altruism is that it harms the actor in favour of others. In this respect you would theoretically have to get less than you give for the action to fit the definition of altruism.

Butts, the examples you give are excellent, but I would argue that they are example mainly of people that give something which is not theirs in order to appear altruistic. The homeless man who gave $250 to the shelter he used was less an altruistic person, and more an altruism concentrator as he relied upon the kindness of strangers to provide him with the money to give to the shelter. As much as he gives, he gives what other people have given and this makes his actions effectively egoistic because he repurposes people's charity according to his own will. This kind of decision making implies his judgement is preferable to the judgement of the people that he got the money from.

Eternauta, as an example of people who have money and give, look at Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, even George Lucas. These are all staggeringly rich people who routinely give away vast quantities of money and arguable have a greater effect than small givers as where the small giver can contribute to funding a shelter, these people could fund the entire thing. Their giving doesn't seem produced by a desire for reputation, Microsoft has a rep that is separate from Bill Gates and is almost entirely negative in my experience.

Altruism is effectively the exercise of power in support of others. It follows that those who hoard power to themselves should have the most opportunity to give. But the effect of human interaction complicates the situation somewhat, as humans often oppose the obviously reputation seeking giver. It seems that altruism receives reward through deliberately not seeking a reward. In this way it is similar to faith.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby sunglasses » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:24 pm

I just like to help people. I've taken homeless people to lunch before. Given rides. That sort of thing. No reason, just felt like it.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:59 pm

sunglasses wrote:I just like to help people. I've taken homeless people to lunch before. Given rides. That sort of thing. No reason, just felt like it.

Yeah, that's altruism: the reward is internal.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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He tested with Turing,
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and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Lindvaettr » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:21 pm

I strongly believe that people's willingness to be altruistic could be defined as being part of Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development. People who are post-conventional stage of moral development will tend to be altruistic, because they have their own principled belief that helping other people is a good end in and of itself. Not because it's expected of them, or because they'll be rewarded, but because the feel that helping a person or people in need is the right thing to do. So even if they have little or nothing to give, they'll give what they can because it's right.

Most people, however, never attain that level of moral development. More people fall into a middle range in which they do what's "right" based on either legal or social expectations. This is, I believe, why people in more rural areas tend to be nicer than people in urban areas. While I think it started (as was mentioned earlier) by people wanting to increase their reputation most (probably), at this point, it's down to social expectations. In rural areas like I live, people expect you to be a nice person. In larger cities, this expectation isn't as common, and so people are less willing to be helpful. These expectations can establish themselves in urban communities, though, which are very much like small towns.

It's important to keep in mind, when considering systemic altruism, that the majority of people will never reach the point of being actually altruistic, that is, doing something helpful for nothing. So even though "incentivized altruism" isn't technically altruism, it's an important social development. I watched a documentary recently that mentioned that Tibetan Buddhists will frequently get together as a group to help injured animals and welcome people because they believe that actions like this will give them karma for the next life. Tibet has always been a very helpful, kind place, and their Buddhism is the reason why many animals that would be easy to hunt and wipe out are thriving in the Himalayas. They think that killing the animals will hurt their karma.

So while "systemic altruism" might not be something that could ever happen, I think incentivized "altrusism" is incredibly important to have. Most people need that sense of reward in order to do the right thing. If it's taking their time, and their effort (and sometimes, their money), most people want something back. I think incentivized, systemic altruism is a wonderful thing to implement, as a society.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby ButtChocolate » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:17 pm

Where do all of you stand on people who choose professions that are in service of others, or the greater society? Like a teacher, or veterinarian, or fireman. I mean certainly they are paid to do these things- and probably get some other rewards for them (like getting to pose for those sexy beefcake calendars. Which one of those professions do that, I forget...?) They often state a desire to help others as a motivating factor to choose their profession. Do you feel there is a component of altruism in that choice, and does that qualify as an effort to fulfill some sort of systemic altruistic function?

What about volunteers, who choose to help others for little to no compensation? Do they fall closer on the spectrum to altruism. Yeah, sure- some of 'em are volunteering to read to the blind just so they can rifle through their underwear drawers while reciting memorized columns from the morning paper out loud. But they can't ALL be building secret tunnels under their Habitat For Humanity projects just so they can come back later and rob the occupants. Some of 'em have got to be doing it because they just genuinely want to help others, and join organizations because they are trying connect with others who share their idea of how they can help. In doing so, are they creating an altruistic system or sub-system?

Or do you guys think there are other more personal motivations in these cases that cancel out/invalidate any sense of altruism? Even though a teacher gets paid, if their initial reason to pursue that career was to "help people learn", does the pay qualify as the sustainable portion of the equation that allows them to continue helping others (much like Marcuse's example of NOT giving away your rent because then you would have nowhere to live and would no longer be able to be charitable.) Or does the fact that they get paid at all invalidate their desire to help others? What do unpaid volunteers get that might invalidate their efforts as genuine altruism?
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:26 pm

To determine how altruistic those decisions are, one would have to look at the opportunity costs of the specific situation. But mostly, who cares? I tend to care about the impacts of people's decisions more than their motivations: motivations only really matter when determining whether a person is likely to make that decision (or similar ones) again.
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Re: Altruism: is it a scam?

Postby ButtChocolate » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:31 pm

Avi, how do you personally view the impact of volunteer organizations? Woudl you classify them as altruistic efforts, or are they something different. I know there are tons out there that take different shapes and forms and execute their actions and create their impacts in different ways, so are there any specifically that you think come close to qualifying as altruistic...?
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