Goodbye, net neutrality

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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby DamianaRaven » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:20 am

KleinerKiller wrote:I can't accept any degree of defeatism.


KleinerKiller later wrote:No, if it passes, net neutrality can never come back. Ever. By its very nature it's the last trigger pull.


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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby KleinerKiller » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:36 am

DamianaRaven wrote:
KleinerKiller wrote:I can't accept any degree of defeatism.


KleinerKiller later wrote:No, if it passes, net neutrality can never come back. Ever. By its very nature it's the last trigger pull.


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"Defeatism" here meaning "it's going to pass regardless so we might as well just start throwing up our hands and talking about how much it sucks instead of bothering to do anything". My second statement is an assessment of what happens if we do just stand by.

Factual Statement: If I get shot in the head, I will die.

Defeatist Statement: I'm going to get shot in the head and die anyway, so why bother taking any measures to prevent myself from getting shot in the head?
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby SandTea » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:45 am

KleinerKiller wrote:You can be among those trying to turn one of the Republicans on the FCC board aside from Ajit "Heil Fuhrer" Pai to the side of net neutrality, though I haven't read up too much on that segment of the resistance so I can't say what the arguments and methods are.


This would be my first choice. I don't know how but if we can get one that would be nice. The Sith come in pairs so I'm hopeful maybe the third republican has a little jedi in him to work with. Even if this attempt does fail, they will try and try again. If me expecting the vote to go down party lines is pessimism, then ya got me. I'm a pessimist. From there I guess I'll...(save a bag of 'I told yas')

And then we just... hope.


That sounds better. Silver lining? This might be the one thing that can bring all the loud extremists together. Can you picture the nazis and brronies (they still a thing?) er, and 'femi-nazis' marching together for their right to scream about each other on a free internet?

Side note- that pai fucker was saying in some article I just read, that the real threat to a free internet was twitter shutting down harassment . Bloomberg I think. :cry:
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby DamianaRaven » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:09 am

KleinerKiller wrote:Factual Statement: If I get shot in the head, I will die.


Nope. A statistical certainty is not an absolute fact. If you saw me get shot in the head, I should hope you wouldn't be like, "welp, she's dead - no point in calling an ambulance." I admire that you're not taking the "defeatist" approach, but I also don't want you to lose hope and think all is forever lost just because a handful of rich assholes have run a con on us. People WILL wake up and push back. TPTB know this, but they also know think that by the time we do, they'll be more than rich enough to buy their way out of trouble, or flee to some remote island and live out their days in luxury. Ask the Romanov family (or the Antoinettes, or the Ceausescus) how well that plan worked for them.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby IamNotCreepy » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:57 pm

The FCC vote going the wrong way is hardly the "last trigger". Just like the FCC's previous rules are being reversed now, they could be reversed back by a future administration.

This tug of war would be annoying and counter-productive for sure, so the best solution would be for Congress to actually pass something cementing the rules into law.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby DamianaRaven » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:13 pm

"Bread and circuses" is why this scheme is going to backfire spectacularly. The phrase refers to the political philosophy that if you make sure your population has enough to eat and something to keep them entertained, they'll let a corrupt government take things a LOT further than they would if than if they're starving and/or bored.

The internet has become so pervasive that for many people, it's actually and literally their ONLY form of entertainment. It keeps us docile and mollified, so it's really pants-on-head stupid to fuck with that in ANY way. Everyone is being complacent and ignorant right now because thus far, nothing has happened. That certainly doesn't mean they won't go shit-flinging NUTS when (for example) the porn is all gone because the only ISP in town just happens to be owned by a couple of religious nuts.

This worries me too, the infection of religion into this fuckeroo. Do these changes mean that if the Head Honcho at Comcast doesn't believe in abortion, then no Comcast customers will be able to look up abortion clinics? Will they be allowed to shut down or throttle any website they think Jesus wouldn't like? Considering how many small towns have one ISP, the implications of this "freedom" are pretty chilling.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby KleinerKiller » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:52 pm

IamNotCreepy wrote:The FCC vote going the wrong way is hardly the "last trigger". Just like the FCC's previous rules are being reversed now, they could be reversed back by a future administration.


The actual vote itself really doesn't matter unless it goes drastically differently from what's expected, what matters is whether nothing happens in the legislative or judiciary branches to stop them between now and the period of time it takes to get the plan in full effect (probably some time in late January). I just find it unlikely that even if numerous protests are ongoing and an administration entirely of net neutrality supporters is put in place, that they'll be able to put the lid back on Pandora's Box. I dread that the ISPs will simply have too much power, money, and influence for it to ever be set back to the way things are now.

I hope I'm wrong, and I would love things to go so suddenly apeshit if the free net's gone that things are reversed (though I doubt even the threat of impending death by angry mob would get Ajit "Give Me More Demeaning Nicknames, Daddy" Pai to reconsider), but as of now, I see the period before the plans are enacted to be the vital point.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby ghijkmnop » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:42 pm

DamianaRaven wrote:... Considering how many small towns have one ISP, the implications of this "freedom" are pretty chilling.


Pai has made his opinion quite clear that he considers Mobile Data Providers to be ISPs, so as long as long as you have Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, etc. available, you have a choice in how you get your internet.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby tinyrick » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:55 pm

IamNotCreepy wrote:The FCC vote going the wrong way is hardly the "last trigger". Just like the FCC's previous rules are being reversed now, they could be reversed back by a future administration.

This tug of war would be annoying and counter-productive for sure, so the best solution would be for Congress to actually pass something cementing the rules into law.


It will require 60 votes in the Senate to pass and only 51 votes to repeal for some fucked up reason.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:37 pm

So, a Mix of Australian and Portuguese internets for 1-3 years it is, then.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:42 pm

A smart company would embrace the outrage by making and keeping a pledge to keep net neutrality in current form alive as their corporate policy. But it wouldn't make much difference unless you live where that company offers service. Because I'm betting this whole idea of opening up the market for competition idea is horseshit. Pretty sure Austin didn't get Google Fiber because of net neutrality.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby Grimstone » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:19 am

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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby blehblah » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:15 pm

This will be strange (I'm assuming it's going to happen) for people outside of the US.

It's pretty simple for certain services, like Netflix, which have global reach. Basically, they host most of their stuff on Amazon Web Services. For folks outside the US, it's as simple as Netflix hosting those non-US service in non-US AWS availability zones (which they already do).

The other big services, like Facebook, Google, et al, are also geographically distributed.

What about the smaller, US-based, services? If they have to pay US telco's to not slow-down access from non-US places, wouldn't it make sense for those services to instead invest in hosting in non-US locales?

Inversely, will non-US services have to pay US telcos to not slow-down access to their services from within the US?

How will the American ISPs use this ability? Are they going to slow-down everything except what they provide (up-to a billion Gb/s when accessing our services, otherwise enjoy your trickle) or selectively slow-down access to only services which compete with what they provide? Will they slow-down encrypted (VPN) traffic to stomp on people using VPN to access slowed-down services, and offer full-speed VPN as a add-on? What will an advertised 'speed' even mean? It's shit enough as it is with the 'up-to' nonsense.

I don't buy Pai's argument about a lack of investment in infrastructure. It seems dubious off the top. Also, Pai reversing an earlier set of rules invites the question of whether or not a future FCC regime will reverse this reversal, creating the type of environment which makes it difficult to make decisions about very large capital spending on infrastructure... which tends to lead to less investment. To be simplistic, if net neutrality is dead, the likes of Google and Facebook may decide to spend billions on their own ISP offerings. On the other hand, if the next FCC regime is going to reinstate neutrality, why bother? Likewise, the current major ISPs may be tempted to spend more to boost the delivery of their own, high-margin, services in a non-neutral world, but why would they if that advantage may be eliminated?

The Internet started as a neutral thing; it didn't occur to ISPs that they could fiddle with the quality of service of services until somewhat recently, as the technology to do so matured, and the importance of services beyond email and browsing became apparent. Imposing net neutrality, then, was a reaction to developing circumstances. The circumstances haven't changed since, but the FCC is poised to remove neutrality. It's not building on previous decisions based on new information or changing circumstances. In other words, it is arbitrary. How can companies commit to spending billions to see returns years-out when decisions like this are arrived at based on arbitrary notions of how this market should be regulated? The safest course of action is to extract profits as much as possible from the existing infrastructure without making any massive investments based on hunches about what will come next.

I would figure the pro-business, self-described economic geniuses of the Republican party would understand this problem. I guess going from pro-business decision making to for-some-businesses decision making is some sort of wider problem. *cough* tax plan *cough*

I guess we'll see how it all turns-out. One part of this has already happened (or, erm, un-happened?).

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/28/tech ... .html?_r=0

Congress completed its overturning of the nation’s strongest internet privacy protections for individuals on Tuesday in a victory for telecommunications companies, which can track and sell a customer’s online information with greater ease.

In a 215-to-205 vote largely along party lines, House Republicans moved to dismantle rules created by the Federal Communications Commission in October. Those rules, which had been slated to go into effect later this year, had required broadband providers to receive permission before collecting data on a user’s online activities.

The action, which follows a similar vote in the Senate last week, will next be brought to President Trump, who is expected to sign the bill into law. A swift repeal may be a prelude to further deregulation of the telecommunications industry.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby KleinerKiller » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:58 pm

So the case of the innumerable anti-neutrality bots and "mysteriously vanished" pro-neutrality comments on the FCC's docket has gotten even more fucking outrageous as more clarifications have been compiled. The more Pai and his toadies get pressed in from all sides, the more brazen their fundamental evil is shown to be.

I'm having trouble thinking of a more openly corrupted political movement in recent American history. At least Trump has tried to make some kind of effort, albeit a braindead one, to bury the Russia shit as the investigation crawls ever closer up toward him. Pai might as well be bragging into a mic at every opportunity about the fat checks his bosses will be writing him and the warmth that engulfs his heart whenever he sees a frightened child being pulled into a windowless van.
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Re: Goodbye, net neutrality

Postby KleinerKiller » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:27 am

A member of the FTC has come out to openly say that they are being set up to fail in the event of the repeal.

Pai has not yet responded with some new variation of "ALL OPPOSITION IS FAKE NEWS AND NOTHING CAN STOP ME," too busy polishing his innumerable jars of pickled fingers from domestic abuse victims and Doctors Without Borders volunteers to hold a press conference.
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