President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby DamianaRaven » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:43 am

I think it was Mnuchin who said they need to protest "on their own time." As an NFL fan, I posit that whatever time they spend on the field/television is MY TIME. I paid for it by watching the commercials, so people like me get to decide what is and isn't acceptable on the field. As such, I say it's beautiful to see these rich, powerful, talented men on their knees for something they think is important.

“I prefer someone who burns the flag and then wraps themselves up in the Constitution over someone who burns the Constitution and then wraps themselves up in the flag.”

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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby DamianaRaven » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:45 am

For those of you who consider Mr. Kapernick to be the face of black protest, I'd like to remind you all that he looks like this without that afro:

Image

Personally, I think this makes him all the MORE courageous. He could easily have passed for white and enjoyed all the privileges thereof (and with that kind of money and fame, no one would have said him nay) but he chose to side with his black heritage and VOLUNTARILY signed up for all the double-standard bullshit that black men have to face.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby tinyrick » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:30 am

Wouldn't it be hilarious if 70 years from now it becomes tradition to kneel during the national anthem because of this incident and then somebody decides to stand as part of a protest and everyone gets mad at him?
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Marcuse » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:09 pm

Oh yay another controversy generated entirely by Trump to distract from his failings elsewhere. Seriously, I'm not being flippant with that, this is a tactic at this point. Whenever he fails to pass legislation, or has difficulty with a foreign nation, he blows the dog whistle on some social issue and everyone trips over themselves to either defend him or condemn him and because of how the media works, the big new story makes the really interesting and pertinent story old news. Whatever else Trump might be, he's adept at manipulating the media.

That aside, it's a non-issue he's complaining about. I'm not American so it doesn't make me particularly mad that people don't stand for the flag. However, they are deliberately refusing to do something that costs nothing in order to make a point that they won't respect a symbol of the nation of which they are a citizen. It seems somewhat churlish to remain a part of such a nation if it is, as I understand they say, so oppressive that the whole nation needs to be deliberately refused in such a way. Of course they have the right to do so, I would suggest that it doesn't protect them from the consequences of their decision if that statement costs them in the future.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:21 pm

Marcuse wrote:That aside, it's a non-issue he's complaining about. I'm not American so it doesn't make me particularly mad that people don't stand for the flag. However, they are deliberately refusing to do something that costs nothing in order to make a point that they won't respect a symbol of the nation of which they are a citizen. It seems somewhat churlish to remain a part of such a nation if it is, as I understand they say, so oppressive that the whole nation needs to be deliberately refused in such a way. Of course they have the right to do so, I would suggest that it doesn't protect them from the consequences of their decision if that statement costs them in the future.


I'd point out that as someone who's been looking into leaving the US, it's not an easy thing to do to find a job and home somewhere else (much less another country), plus people get attached to the people they are around (but not me #lonelylifeisbestlife).

I don't know. Trump is president right now, everyone calls black people who aren't clean cut and dressed in suits 'thugs' (because I suppose racial slurs are too on the nose nowadays), and I know at least four people in my life (three of which are direct family) who have also used racial slurs in referring to black people. And that's without considering the policing thing. If black people feel like maybe it's a bit fucked up that they're being asked to respect the symbol of a country that clearly hates them but is too ashamed to outright say it, I don't blame 'em. Might do the same thing, in their shoes.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Marcuse » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:26 pm

I'd point out that as someone who's been looking into leaving the US, it's not an easy thing to do to find a job and home somewhere else (much less another country), plus people get attached to the people they are around (but not me #lonelylifeisbestlife).


I don't know whether that kind of thing is such a barrier to a multimillionaire sportsperson though. At the very least they probably have enough recognition and contacts that they could make a move within their career path without an unreasonable amount of difficulty.

Gonna snipe a little so I don't conflate points.

I don't know. Trump is president right now,


Presidents are transitory. I know that he's a bellowing idiot who's about as politically literate as a bonobo, but he won't be president in 3 and a bit years (I hope). Last I checked, the US had a serious problem with racism and police shootings when Obama was President, so I don't know that it's really any material difference now given Trump couldn't pass flagship legislation with both chambers of congress in his favour.

everyone calls black people who aren't clean cut and dressed in suits 'thugs' (because I suppose racial slurs are too on the nose nowadays),


Sure, and it's shitty. But I would wager that white people dressed in the same way wouldn't be considered fine upstanding members of the community either. At least here, there's a big problem with an ill-educated white underclass being subject to social stigma too, it's just that nobody protests about that.

and I know at least four people in my life (three of which are direct family) who have also used racial slurs in referring to black people.


Racism is definitely bad. I don't know that it's within the state remit to police those private opinions though, much as we might deplore them.

And that's without considering the policing thing.


Absolutely there's a really serious issue with armed police in the US killing people and being legally in a position where they face next to no consequences for it. It's also really serious that they seem to be killing minorities at a higher rate than other groups (IIRC Native Americans are the most over represented in that list). The solution isn't easy, and nothing about kneeling before a flag, or Trump's dog whistling, will stop that.

If black people feel like maybe it's a bit fucked up that they're being asked to respect the symbol of a country that clearly hates them but is too ashamed to outright say it, I don't blame 'em. Might do the same thing, in their shoes.


I'm confused as to why a symbol of the nation is relevant to the actions of some people from that nation. We can speak at length about the manifest and clear disparities in how different ethnic groups are treated and consider ways to stop that, but it's neither here not there to professional athletes and whether they stand up near a flag or not. I suppose the problem is that people are totally on board with the symbolism of kneeling, but can't grasp why other people would think that the equally symbolic stance of respect for the flag is important too.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:41 pm

Marcuse wrote:
I'd point out that as someone who's been looking into leaving the US, it's not an easy thing to do to find a job and home somewhere else (much less another country), plus people get attached to the people they are around (but not me #lonelylifeisbestlife).


I don't know whether that kind of thing is such a barrier to a multimillionaire sportsperson though. At the very least they probably have enough recognition and contacts that they could make a move within their career path without an unreasonable amount of difficulty.

Gonna snipe a little so I don't conflate points.

I don't know. Trump is president right now,


Because for many of those millionaires, this is their home. For many people, when your home is fucked up, you don't leave it, you try to fix it.

Presidents are transitory. I know that he's a bellowing idiot who's about as politically literate as a bonobo, but he won't be president in 3 and a bit years (I hope). Last I checked, the US had a serious problem with racism and police shootings when Obama was President, so I don't know that it's really any material difference now given Trump couldn't pass flagship legislation with both chambers of congress in his favour.

everyone calls black people who aren't clean cut and dressed in suits 'thugs' (because I suppose racial slurs are too on the nose nowadays),


Sure, and it's shitty. But I would wager that white people dressed in the same way wouldn't be considered fine upstanding members of the community either. At least here, there's a big problem with an ill-educated white underclass being subject to social stigma too, it's just that nobody protests about that.

and I know at least four people in my life (three of which are direct family) who have also used racial slurs in referring to black people.


Racism is definitely bad. I don't know that it's within the state remit to police those private opinions though, much as we might deplore them.

And that's without considering the policing thing.


Absolutely there's a really serious issue with armed police in the US killing people and being legally in a position where they face next to no consequences for it. It's also really serious that they seem to be killing minorities at a higher rate than other groups (IIRC Native Americans are the most over represented in that list). The solution isn't easy, and nothing about kneeling before a flag, or Trump's dog whistling, will stop that.

If black people feel like maybe it's a bit fucked up that they're being asked to respect the symbol of a country that clearly hates them but is too ashamed to outright say it, I don't blame 'em. Might do the same thing, in their shoes.


I'm confused as to why a symbol of the nation is relevant to the actions of some people from that nation. We can speak at length about the manifest and clear disparities in how different ethnic groups are treated and consider ways to stop that, but it's neither here not there to professional athletes and whether they stand up near a flag or not. I suppose the problem is that people are totally on board with the symbolism of kneeling, but can't grasp why other people would think that the equally symbolic stance of respect for the flag is important too.


You kinda disproved your own point in bringing up shooting happening under Obama. Presidents are transitory, but racism is not. Right now, it's on the upswing, and it probably will be as long as economic disparity continues to be on the upswing. And Trump may be ineffective, but Jeff Beauregard Sessions III (his attorney general who's in charge of the justice system, and yes that's his real full name) is not and can do quite a lot without congressional approval, while Trump's hemming and hawing on Charlottesville has raised some sympathy in Republican circles for white nationalists, which I continue to contend are just white supremacists but without the violence. Words have consequences, to quote the most uninspiring presidential candidate since Whitebread McProfessorson.

And actually, I'd argue our white ill-educated working class has been afforded about twenty million sympathetic articles on their plight since the election.

I'm not talking about policing personal opinions, but do wish to illustrate that racism isn't something minor that isn't worth protesting about.

Actually, protesting has eventually changed things in this country. Whether it does now is hard to say.

I don't think you need to lecture me on not grasping people who have respect for the flag. I have respect for it in what it's supposed to represent, in the ideals it's supposed to uphold. Right now, we're not upholding those ideals (and at least one political party out of two is directly fighting against issues of race), we're actually going backward on most--if not all--of them. So if you want to take a knee because you find the situation unbearable, go nuts.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Marcuse » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:57 pm

You kinda disproved your own point in bringing up shooting happening under Obama. Presidents are transitory, but racism is not. Right now, it's on the upswing, and it probably will be as long as economic disparity continues to be on the upswing.


It was in response to your opening comment about "well, Trump is President" as though this indicated some additional reason for people to be protesting about racism. As you say, Presidents are transitory, racism is not. If Hills had been elected I'm pretty sure all of the people who have expressed racism would probably have continued to do so.

And Trump may be ineffective, but Jeff Beauregard Sessions III (his attorney general who's in charge of the justice system, and yes that's his real full name) is not,


Lol, our Chancellor of the Exchequer used to be (properly titled) Gideon Osborne. Sessions might be an odious slice of hidden KKK, but he's getting regularly shat on by his own boss. Trump is a debuff even to his own nutcases. It's not an insignificant thing, and I still hope he'll end up kicked out as a result of the Russia investigation.

while Trump's hemming and hawing on Charlottesville has raised some sympathy in Republican circles for white nationalists, which I continue to contend are just white supremacists but without the violence. Words have consequences, to quote the most uninspiring presidential candidate since Whitebread McProfessorson.


I mean, he said that both sides were violent, which as far as I can tell is factually accurate. It seemed people wanted him to say only one side was violent in order to condemn the neo-nazis among the group of people protesting the statue removal. It does definitely appear that "white nationalists" are the same, but I don't know how that's different from "hindu nationalists" or other non-nation terms being used in conjunction with "nationalist" to describe someone whose overriding focus is a single issue.

And actually, I'd argue our white ill-educated working class has been afforded about twenty million sympathetic articles on their plight since the election.


Definitely. It's trying to answer the question of how the hell people could vote Trump. But the issue has been ignored for decades, and was ignored under Obama and Bush and previous Presidents. It's reasonable to ask the question, even if understanding there's disadvantage in no way justifies racism.

I'm not talking about policing personal opinions, but do wish to illustrate that racism isn't something minor that isn't worth protesting about.


I know you're not. However, I can't see a way that your complaint about people being racist can be dealt with by an official body like the government without a long term program of education and discussion designed to dispel racism by educating people.

Actually, protesting has eventually changed things in this country. Whether it does now is hard to say.


It's done a lot of things throughout the world. I'm not saying protesting is useless.

I don't think you need to lecture me on not grasping people who have respect for the flag. I have respect for it in what it's supposed to represent, in the ideals it's supposed to uphold. Right now, we're not upholding those ideals (and at least one political party out of two is directly fighting against issues of race), we're actually going backward on most--if not all--of them. So if you want to take a knee because you find the situation unbearable, go nuts.


I don't know where I was lecturing you. I did point out that there's a disparity between people understanding one symbolism and defending it while simultaneously discounting the merit of a similar but unrelated symbolism, but that was largely because writing my last post made me think of it. I agree that they have the right to do whatever they want, just that doing so has consequences, and people seem to be complaining that other people find their protest insulting, which I see as reasonable if not something I personally agree with.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby iMURDAu » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:02 pm

I'm confused as to why a symbol of the nation is relevant to the actions of some people from that nation.


Because you've got people who believe if you're not white and Christian you're not American. I personally have met dozens of people who hold that idea, some of them I'm related to by marriage. We believe in freedom which includes freedom to be pissed off at how the country is being run and protesting by not standing for the national anthem and saluting the flag. The flag represents the country, the country is being poorly run, therefore the actions of the person running the country reflect onto the people who aren't going to burn effigies of the person in charge but will say they feel the flag doesn't represent them because they're not considered real Americans.

Kaepernick is a joke imo that doesn't have a job in Baltimore right now for a good reason. But President Dumbass makes mountains out of molehills. Goes to show even if you bully an unpopular person that people will stick up for them.

And in this country imo there's no social stigma with the white underclass. They're allowed to overdose on heroin and we'll keep reviving them because they're white (aka our poor babies, aka the future ruination of the country). Afaik they're putting narcan in schools in rural areas but not so much in urban areas. I feel no sympathy for white people in middle America who have no money but keep voting for Republicans that cut social services, education, police and fire funding but give tax breaks to the rich while promising the jobs that left will magically reappear. That's why I moved the fuck out of there.

Yes there were police shootings under Obama but he wasn't calling for the police (or anyone else) to shed more blood like Trump is. Trump is actively courting racists and giving them voice. They feel empowered by him. He's their guy and they feel this is their country. If Hillary had won I'd probably replace racists with extreme SJWs and we'd be talking about something else equally ridiculous.

Part of what happened yesterday was the NFL simply saying fuck you to the President. Who the hell is he to tell NFL owners how to run their businesses? They're wealthier than he is. More successful too.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby tinyrick » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:35 pm

Joe Walsh decided to be an ass to Stevie Wonder on Twitter. Stevie Wonder kneeled during the national anthem and apparently that makes him ungrateful.

I don't suppose there's a chance Stevie Wonder followed up kneeling for the national anthem with a performance of this hit song:

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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby mancityfooty » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:27 pm

kneeling looks way more respectful than all the fat assholes watching at home who don't do a thing when that fucking song is played.
also, can we change the anthem? maybe? something better?
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Kate » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:10 pm

I think players have the right to kneel, and the NFL absolutely has the right to let them go if that's cutting into profits. My parents have followed football every year for over 50 years and they stopped after it became "politicized." Because it turns out sometimes old people use sports to get away from the bullshit irl since they're too old for the internet. If it's only a handful of people who are turned off by this, great. If not, though, hopefully the solution of not bringing players onto the field until after the anthem is one that works.

I do think there is a problem with how the white underclass is perceived and treated, but it is not as severe as the racial thing and the people doing it are largely not in a position to do actual harm to them. And yeah, there are certainly a lot of articles about poor white people as we try to understand how Trump could have won, but let's not pretend there is not an equal (if not greater) flood of pieces on how awful it is for minorities, and that doesn't seem to have stopped racism. Somehow. Who would have guessed?

Marcuse is right, some people see the rejection of the anthem and flag as rejection of the entire country. I think they're getting their panties in a twist over something they can easily ignore, but I can understand that in a time of great division, if you turn on your TV to engage in something that has traditionally brought Americans of all stripes together and instead you get more division, you might get very upset. Trump is an idiot and an asshole for engaging in this and I think Doods is trying to say he is the fucking president of the United States and should not be engaging in this bullshit and telling people not to exercise their speech, but hey, he's Trump. I bet he thinks "Obama got involved with the Redskins so what are they complaining about?"
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby sunglasses » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:17 pm

I'd like him to, idk, stop fucking tweeting about sports and who should stand/shouldn't stand and maybe focus on helping out Puerto Rico and the USVI.

Crazy, I know.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby tinyrick » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:59 pm

Kate wrote:Trump is an idiot and an asshole for engaging in this and I think Doods is trying to say he is the fucking president of the United States and should not be engaging in this bullshit and telling people not to exercise their speech, but hey, he's Trump. I bet he thinks "Obama got involved with the Redskins so what are they complaining about?"


You win that bet:

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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby mancityfooty » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:00 pm

yeah, but they aren't even real 'Mericans.
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