The Libertarian Purity Test

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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby Crimson847 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:24 am

aviel wrote:
Crimson847 wrote:
aviel wrote:The thing about libertarianism any radical ideology is that it seems a priori appealing, but starts to fall apart once you look at the data.


ftfy

See also: socialism, fascism, and fundamentalism.

Well, libertarianism doesn't necessarily need to be extreme. But even when looking at policies not so nearly extremely as anarcho-capitalism, libertarian economic policies tend to point in the wrong direction, despite the a priori appeal of the notion that things tend to work themselves out.


How would you define a libertarian? I assume you don't consider yourself one despite scoring as a "softcore libertarian" on the test, for instance--what is the relevant distinction between simply supporting less restrictive policies on average than the general population, and being an actual "libertarian"?
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby cmsellers » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:55 am

aviel wrote:Well, libertarianism doesn't necessarily need to be extreme. But even when looking at policies not so nearly extremely as anarcho-capitalism, libertarian economic policies tend to point in the wrong direction, despite the a priori appeal of the notion that things tend to work themselves out.

I think that the notion that markets are usually the best approach is sound.

The problem is that movement libertarians:
  1. Tend to ignore the problems posed by natural monopolies.
  2. Tend to ignore the problems posed by imperfect information.
  3. Tend to ignore externalities.
  4. Tend to ignore the differences in starting positions between various members of society.
  5. Tend to treat the free market as a goal rather than a means to an end.
I also strongly dislike the fact that libertarian solution to the Tragedy of the Commons is invariably to partition the commons, but that's a philosophical difference rather than a stubborn refusal to account for the areas where markets fail.
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby aviel » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:53 am

Crimson847 wrote:How would you define a libertarian? I assume you don't consider yourself one despite scoring as a "softcore libertarian" on the test, for instance--what is the relevant distinction between simply supporting less restrictive policies on average than the general population, and being an actual "libertarian"?

Part of the reason I really don't like using ideological labels is because they're difficult to define, and because they will sometimes imply policies a person doesn't necessarily have. If I were to describe myself as a liberal, that would probably give you the right idea of about 90% of my policy leanings, but the remaining 10% confusion would really annoy me.

Anyway, I'd probably just define a libertarian as someone who wants less government involvement in every area or nearly every area, including foreign policy, economic policy, and social policy.
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby mancityfooty » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:41 pm

I scored 15. "You are starting to have libertarian leanings. Explore them."
Considering how many of those questions I said "no, no, no, no the fuck no" to, I'm surprised I scored that high.

Oh, yeah. It was this question:
21.Should marijuana be legalized?
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby Tesseracts » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:09 pm

cmsellers wrote:
aviel wrote:The thing about libertarianism is that it seems a priori appealing, but (primarily on economic issues) starts to fall apart once you look at the data.

I don't agree with you entirely on this. I do agree with you in regards to both anarcho-capitalism and the "non-aggression principle." Attempts to argue from rather absurd first principles are one of the reasons I've never thought much of the Libertarian Party.

That said, I've noticed that members of the Libertarian Party tend to be much more willing to compromise on social issues than economic issues. Members tend to pro-police and divided on abortion and immigration, and can find libertarian justifications for these things when they want to. Johnson supporting anti-discrimination laws and Weld supporting the assault weapons ban were very grudgingly forgiven, while I imagine any candidate who said that we need the IRS and welfare is necessary to provide people equality of opportunity would be booed out of the room.

The mainstream libertarian stance on welfare doesn't make any sense to me. Friedman said we should get rid of welfare and replace it with a minimum income. He called it a "negative income tax." Isn't that the same thing?!
Crimson847 wrote:
aviel wrote:
Crimson847 wrote:
aviel wrote:The thing about libertarianism any radical ideology is that it seems a priori appealing, but starts to fall apart once you look at the data.


ftfy

See also: socialism, fascism, and fundamentalism.

Well, libertarianism doesn't necessarily need to be extreme. But even when looking at policies not so nearly extremely as anarcho-capitalism, libertarian economic policies tend to point in the wrong direction, despite the a priori appeal of the notion that things tend to work themselves out.


How would you define a libertarian? I assume you don't consider yourself one despite scoring as a "softcore libertarian" on the test, for instance--what is the relevant distinction between simply supporting less restrictive policies on average than the general population, and being an actual "libertarian"?

Both the left and right in America are very authoritarian, and they are only getting MORE authoritarian. I think you are a libertarian if you are opposed to that. There's nothing inherently radical about this position.
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby cmsellers » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:56 pm

Tesseracts wrote:The mainstream libertarian stance on welfare doesn't make any sense to me. Friedman said we should get rid of welfare and replace it with a minimum income. He called it a "negative income tax." Isn't that the same thing?!

I don't know that that's the mainstream libertarian stance, and in fact I think Friedman's position makes perfect sense. Instead of a hodgepodge of federal programs (some of which are actually administered by the states, like foodstamps) which entail bureaucracies to determine eligibility and onto which the government can throw humiliating requirements such as drug testing; instead of that you have the IRS make one simple determination: how much income did you make? A universal basic income, also somewhat popular in libertarian circles, is a simpler and even more extreme version of this.

The problem is that welfare is unpopular with the general public while negative income tax and universal basic income are not particularly popular (because the poor are lazy shiftless bums who just want free money to eat steak and lobster and smoke up on the pot), and a lot of libertarians seem to say "screw the poor; let's abolish welfare anyways."
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:40 pm

What I don't get about Libertarianism is the whole caveat emptor thing. You'll see libertarians just supporting this unironically. Don't they realize how suspicious it makes them seem, especially if that person is a small business owner?
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby cmsellers » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:07 pm

Ericthebearjew wrote:What I don't get about Libertarianism is the whole caveat emptor thing. You'll see libertarians just supporting this unironically. Don't they realize how suspicious it makes them seem, especially if that person is a small business owner?

Libertarians don't support the principle of caveat emptor. The most extreme libertarians--who argue from the "non-aggression principle"--see fraud as a form of aggression.

The problem is that these people generally want to abolish proactive consumer protection by the governments, and just let people sue for punitive damages after the fact. They assume that the victims will be able to afford court costs and that businesses who cause harm will either make their victims whole or go out of business and set a cautionary tale for others. None of these assumptions are consistently born out even with existing tort law as far as I can tell.

Rather than clear laws protecting consumers and telling businesses what's acceptable they also want judges to determine whether harm occurred and how much the harm should be worth. Do you know why so many corporations are incorporated in Delaware? Yes, part of it is the low taxes, but part of it is that the Delaware Court of Chancery has more precedents on business practices than any other state, and businesses (except the "financial services sector") hate uncertainty.

They also tend to ignore externalities. There's a reason movement libertarians tend to be agnostic about or hostile to the scientific consensus on global warming. Admitting that greenhouse gases cause global warming would mean that the billions of people are victims of aggression by millions of polluters, and won't that be a fun legal mess to sort out. It's much easier to pretend that the ability to pollute the air is an unlimited resource for anyone who wants to use it.
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby NotCIAAgent » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:17 pm

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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby DashaBlade » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:45 am

Your score is...

46

31-50 points: Your libertarian credentials are obvious. Doubtlessly you will become more extreme as time goes on.

Eh, maybe so. Some of the shit on there was just crazy talk. I mean, sure, government is inherently evil, but the way to fix that isn't to abolish government. It's to institute a robotocracy, everyone knows that. :roll:
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby CultofZoidberg » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:35 am

Matt the Czar wrote:http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi-bin/purity.cgi

"This is the Libertarian Purity Test, which is intended to measure how libertarian you are. It isn't intended to be any sort of McCarthyite purging device -- just a form of entertainment, hopefully thought-provoking. I like it a lot better than the more famous "World's Shortest Political Quiz" because I haven't stated the questions with any intent to give an upward bias to a test-taker's score, and because it gives a clearer breakdown between hard and soft-core libertarians. Enjoy, suggest your friends try it out, and see how you compare to other test-takers..."

I got an 18.

"16-30 points: You are a soft-core libertarian. With effort, you may harden and become pure."


Hmm, I mention my hatred of libertarianism, and lo and behold

Also results Your Libertarian Purity Score

Your score is...


22

What Your Score Means

0 points: You are not a libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. You are probably not even a liberal or a conservative. Just some Nazi nut, I guess.

1-5 points: You have a few libertarian notions, but overall you're a statist.

6-15 points: You are starting to have libertarian leanings. Explore them.

16-30 points: You are a soft-core libertarian. With effort, you may harden and become pure.

31-50 points: Your libertarian credentials are obvious. Doubtlessly you will become more extreme as time goes on.

51-90 points: You are a medium-core libertarian, probably self-consciously so. Your friends probably encourage you to quit talking about your views so much.

91-130 points: You have entered the heady realm of hard-core libertarianism. Now doesn't that make you feel worse that you didn't get a perfect score?

131-159 points: You are nearly a perfect libertarian, with a tiny number of blind spots. Think about them, then take the test over again. On the other hand, if you scored this high, you probably have a good libertarian objection to my suggested libertarian answer. :-)

160 points: Perfect! The world needs more like you.


Oh fuck them!!! I normally register Green, and in the last thread I defended more or less seizing the commanding heights of the economy!!!!

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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby cmsellers » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:09 am

@Zoid:
Assuming your positions are close to those of the Green Party platform I'm pretty sure there's two main things that likely got your score so high.

One would be your position on social issues, the other would be your position on foreign policy. It's possible as well that you might have taken some positions hostile to the Federal Reserve, though unlike social issues and foreign policy I wouldn't assume that.

Interestingly, I can see a staunch member of the Green Party answering "yes" to some of the three and five point positions that I would answer "no" on. With that in mind, did you answer "yes" to at least some of the following? (All of these are three or five point questions I answered "no" on.)

Libertarian purity test wrote:41. Should immigration laws be abolished?
43. Should all of the Federal Reserve's discretionary powers be eliminated and the monetary base frozen?
48. Should the military budget be cut by at least 75%?
49. Should the U.S. withdraw completely from Europe, Asia, and other foreign bases?
50. Is bombing civilians in an enemy country morally equivalent to murder?
60. Should the state be disarmed and its military disbanded?
62. Is all government essentially exploitation of the productive members of society for the benefit of a parasitic ruling elite?


Incidentally, I tried answering all of the questions as I thought a Green Party activist from the most radical wing would and got a 40, higher than my actual score. This, of course, is a result of the fact that I answered all of those 3-5 point questions "yes" that I'd previously answered "no," while my hypothetical radical Green answered "no" to only two three-point questions that my actual self answered "yes" to. (And there is not a single five-pointer the real me agrees with.)

I also discovered in the process of checking positions that I find the Green Party's economic policies to reflect a truly horrifying degree of willful ignorance. Not only are they against free trade (which is a really strong point against them), but they're also in favor of rent control and want to destroy the independence of the Fed. I think if ISideWith included every point in the Green Party's platform, I'd score considerably lower with Jill Stein than I currently do.
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby jbobsully11 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:14 am

I got 23.
16-30 points: You are a soft-core libertarian. With effort, you may harden and become pure.

I answered "yes" to only one of the three-point questions and one of the five-pointers. I felt like some of the questions should have been more specific.
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Crimson847 wrote:In other words, transgender-friendly privacy laws don't molest people, people molest people.

(Presumably, the only way to stop a bad guy with a transgender-friendly privacy law is a good guy with a transgender-friendly privacy law, and thus transgender-friendly privacy law rights need to be enshrined in the Constitution as well)
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby gregfrankenstein » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:36 am

23. Which apparently means I'm a soft-core libertarian, but the way I answered was essentially "not libertarian at all, except I want to slash the crap out of the defense budget". Also, weed and hookers are cool with me.

Most of these however seem like they're geared toward small business owners who are upset they have to keep rat turds out of the kitchen and they can't perform unlicensed kidney transplants in the break room. I'd be very afraid of anyone who got a perfect score.
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Re: The Libertarian Purity Test

Postby Tesseracts » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:39 am

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