ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:07 am

Windy wrote:It is totally rational to allow Christine into whatever bathrooms she wants, and anyone who doesn't feel the same way as me is a bigot.

You're right, bathrooms should be separate but equal.

Nobody's trying to enforce any ideology except that embodied in the 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection, which is binding on the states, whether you agree with it or not.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Windy » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:16 am

aviel wrote:You're right, bathrooms should be separate but equal.


If you want to abolish anything gender-segregated, please go ahead and do that. I fail to see how it has anything to do with transgenderism.

Nobody's trying to enforce any ideology except that embodied in the 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection, which is binding on the states, whether you agree with it or not.


Exactly what right is being infringed? Non-transgendered people aren't allowed to use any bathroom they want either.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Tesseracts » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:34 am

I don't know you guys, I completely agree with Windy. Christine weirds me out and so trans people in general shouldn't have any rights. I'm convinced. This decision isn't based on my feelings of disgust for Christine-Chan at all, it's based on pure reason.
Windy wrote:Exactly what right is being infringed? Non-transgendered people aren't allowed to use any bathroom they want either.

They used to be able to, until gay marriage became legal, and suddenly they started making laws about what bathrooms people are allowed to use. I'm sure those two things aren't related at all.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Jack Road » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:50 am

Your sarcasm is amusing, however, as Windy is either deliberately confrontational or mentally challenged, it might end with him being confused. Please use caution.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Windy » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:55 am

Yes, I'm the mentally challenged one because I don't think this person is a woman.

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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Krashlia » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:57 am

sunglasses wrote:Some transmen have pointed out that because (as per the NC law) their birth certificate says 'female' they'd have to use the women's restroom-even if they have a fabulous beard. They rightly pointed out that the legislature often forgets about them and they doubted that this is what they intended. Good points, I thought.

[ Image ]


Oh no you don't. NOT TODAY!

If anyone is molesting my wife in a public bathroom, ITS GONNA BE ME! MOVE!

(Shoves guy aside, boldly walks into bathroom)

Wife (that I totally have since I'm a totally married man):... what the- The Hell! Give me a break I'm in the bathroom! Can I piss in peace?!

Krashlia: No, dangit Marlene. I'm in here to save our marriage!

Wife: You are killing our marriage. THIS is killing our marriage!

Krashlia: Well if there isn't a world where I could whip it out in front of my spouse, when she reasonably expects to be alone in the bathroom, before the gays do, I don't know what world I'm living in.

(thrown out of bathroom)

As our protagonist lies on the ground he sheds a single tear, for the world he left behind and the harsh, new one he inhabits now. There is no point in fighting anymore. Its all over now, he thought as he somberly sat up to put away his member, they have won.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Tesseracts » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:08 am

Jack Road wrote:Your sarcasm is amusing, however, as Windy is either deliberately confrontational or mentally challenged, it might end with him being confused. Please use caution.

Uh, I don't think this is right at all. There's nothing wrong with Windy.
Windy wrote:Yes, I'm the mentally challenged one because I don't think this person is a woman.

[ Image ]

I'm the confused one now. What is your argument? Are you saying trans men must be regarded as men not women? Are you saying trans people only count if their physical appearance is up to par? You said something about forcing ideologies on people... what's your point exactly?

Should we have laws which can give people fines for their bathroom choice?
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Jack Road » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:09 am

Windy wrote:Yes, I'm the mentally challenged one because I don't think this person is a woman.

[ Image ]


You are right, this is a man. He is listed as female on his birth certificate, and so he is legally expected to use the female restroom. But yes, he is a man.

Image

https://twitter.com/_michaelhughes1
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:12 am

Windy wrote:If you want to abolish anything gender-segregated, please go ahead and do that. I fail to see how it has anything to do with transgenderism.

Then you didn't read the complaint to which I linked in my original post; this law is discriminatory on the basis of gender, gender identity, and sexual orientation, all of which meet the criteria necessary for suspect classification.

Exactly what right is being infringed?

The North Carolina statute violates Section 1 of the 14th Amendment which states, in relevant part, that "No state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Non-transgendered people aren't allowed to use any bathroom they want either.

That kind of logic was firmly rejected in Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967).
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Windy » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:55 am

Tesseracts wrote: I'm the confused one now. What is your argument?


My point is that the claim that no one who claims to be trans is doing it for fetish reasons is at least as incorrect as the claim that everyone who claims to be trans is doing it for fetish reasons. But you don't filter out people like Christine-chan. The problem is that your goals require forcing other people to believe that a transgender person is their identified gender. It's easier to accept this when the person has gone through surgery and completely passes as the opposite gender. It gets harder when you try to force people to believe Christine-chan is a woman who belongs in female locker rooms.

"But Windy, Christine-chan is just one person!"

If your ideology leads to even one absurd conclusion, then it's irrational.

Are you saying trans people only count if their physical appearance is up to par?


Physical appearance makes up almost all of gender. Regardless of what gender you identify as, other people tend to identify you as whatever gender you look and sound.

Should we have laws which can give people fines for their bathroom choice?


Maybe. I assume there's a reason bathrooms are segregated in the first place.

Jack Road wrote:You are right, this is a man. He is listed as female on his birth certificate, and so he is legally expected to use the female restroom. But yes, he is a man.


Lemme try again

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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:03 am

Let's say that this "Christine-chan" person somehow doesn't "legitimately" identify as another gender, and let's also say (despite the fact that nobody has actually said this) that anyone's argument here required us to allow her to use a woman's restroom.

Even if I grant all that, your argument is still a strawman. Nobody claims that every person who will go into a bathroom the opposite of their assigned gender at birth will do so of virtuous motive; that's beside the point. It's enough to say that many people who go into bathrooms not corresponding to their genetic sex do so because they're genuinely transgendered. When dealing with a suspect class, you don't get to pass legislation so vastly overinclusive.

If allowing Christine-chan into a woman's bathroom is "irrational", then surely forcing James P. Sheffield (see page 1 of the thread) to use a woman's bathroom is at least as "irrational", so your philosophy must fail as well. But if we're forced to pick between the two, the law requires that we pick that option that lets James use the male restroom, not the option that prohibits Christine from using the female one.

And this is all without getting into analysis of whether gender-segregated restrooms are constitutional in the first place.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Windy » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:35 am

aviel wrote:Even if I grant all that, your argument is still a strawman. Nobody claims that every person who will go into a bathroom the opposite of their assigned gender at birth will do so of virtuous motive;


The lack of any kind of prevention for that situation implies either a belief that it will never happen, or condoning it.

If allowing Christine-chan into a woman's bathroom is "irrational", then surely forcing James P. Sheffield (see page 1 of the thread) to use a woman's bathroom is at least as "irrational", so your philosophy must fail as well.


That's not my philosophy. I don't care if people like Brianna Wu use the woman's bathroom because it's less awkward than if she were to use the man's bathroom.

But if we're forced to pick between the two, the law requires that we pick that option that lets James use the male restroom, not the option that prohibits Christine from using the female one.


We're not forced to pick between the two though.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:44 am

Windy wrote:The lack of any kind of prevention for that situation implies either a belief that it will never happen, or condoning it.

Actually, what it implies is a recognition that legislation discriminatory against a suspect class has to be narrowly tailored; overinclusive legislation that affects all transgender people in order to get a few people, whom we don't know exist in meaningful numbers if at all, who are pretending to be transgender in order to use other restrooms for malicious purposes is Constitutionally impermissible.

That's not my philosophy. I don't care if people like Brianna Wu use the woman's bathroom because it's less awkward than if she were to use the man's bathroom.

Then I'm unclear as to your defense of this law, because this law would require Sheffield to use the woman's restroom. And if you're not defending the law, then what is your stance? The fact that I have to ask you every single thread means you're not doing a good job of articulating it.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
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He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby CarrieVS » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:55 am

Jack Road wrote:Wthey think of trans-gendered people, they think of people that look like men in dresses, scaring little girls in female restrooms.


Funnily enough, as a little girl I occasionally used the gents- when I was out with my dad, when I was too young to go into the ladies on own. It was a long time ago and I don't remember it very clearly, but I'm pretty sure any blokes I met in there were more scared of me than I was of them.
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Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby sunglasses » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:40 pm

I've gone into men's restrooms before when the line was too long for the ladies.

No one seemed to care. I didn't molest any men. No men molested me. I just pissed.

I will say that in the past when I went into restrooms that were designated unisex, they did not have tampon dispensers. The designated women's restrooms have tampon dispensers-and now condoms! That's the biggest difference that I know of. Oh, and that for the longest time only women's or "family" restrooms had diaper changing areas. That is now changing as well (which is good-that's sexist as all hell. Men take care of their children too)
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