ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

What's happening in your world? Discuss it here.
Forum rules
Play nice. We will be watching

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby gisambards » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:53 pm

I have to take real issue with this:
Windy wrote:The problem is that your goals require forcing other people to believe that a transgender person is their identified gender.

How is this in any way a problem?
  • 8

User avatar
gisambards
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 2088
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:45 pm
Show rep

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Windy » Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:40 pm

gisambards wrote:I have to take real issue with this:
Windy wrote:The problem is that your goals require forcing other people to believe that a transgender person is their identified gender.

How is this in any way a problem?


The same reason why forcing your religion onto others usually doesn't end well.
  • 0

User avatar
Windy
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 3127
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 11:41 am
Show rep

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Matthew Notch » Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:47 pm

"Forcing" someone to believe anything is pretty horrifically awful in just about every context, even if the thing you are forcing someone to believe is accurate to some degree. I'm not sure that right to belief has ever been the ACLU's number one priority, but it's not the end of the world, and anyway I don't believe this law or its downstriking is going to "force" anyone to believe anything anyway.

That said.

Sunny just said that she went into a men's room with little incident. That's a sentiment I've heard repeated many times throughout this thread. What is the trouble, then, with a woman who was born a man having to use the men's room? Why are restrooms gendered in the first place? Because if there's a good reason, that should be discussed more than it is so far.

It's a bad law, and it should be stricken down, but entirely on principle. I personally feel that anyone using this law as a stumping point to talk about equality is just feeding into his or her own feeling of self-righteousness, and that should be recognized.
  • 4

It's Dangerous to Go Alone


"I desperately want Jiggery Pokery now."-- Pikajew

"I do feel that if she happens to favour attractive, successful, intelligent men I will be at a disadvantage."--Anglerphobe

"I have a beautiful sphincter and Mexico is gonna pay for it."--Kate
User avatar
Matthew Notch
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 4950
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:48 am
Location: The ICT
Show rep
Title: The Last Finisher

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby gisambards » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:03 pm

Windy wrote:
gisambards wrote:I have to take real issue with this:
Windy wrote:The problem is that your goals require forcing other people to believe that a transgender person is their identified gender.

How is this in any way a problem?


The same reason why forcing your religion onto others usually doesn't end well.

But that's completely different. You're saying being against this law requires "forcing" someone to accept that transgender people exist. That's not like forcing your religion on a person, it's like "forcing" them to accept that your religion exists, and to put it plainly I think that the only type of person who would complain that they're being "forced" to accept the existence of a minority - particularly when they feel their right to not not have to acknowledge that minority is more important than that minority's human rights - is clearly bigoted toward that minority.
  • 7

User avatar
gisambards
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 2088
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:45 pm
Show rep

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby CarrieVS » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:08 pm

Is the goal of this law not to force people to accept that a transgender person is their birth gender?
  • 5

A Combustible Lemon wrote:Death is an archaic concept for simpleminded commonfolk, not Victorian scientist whales.
User avatar
CarrieVS
TCS Redshirt
TCS Redshirt
 
Posts: 7103
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: By my wild self in the wet wild woods waving my wild tail
Show rep
Title: Drama Llama

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Absentia » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:16 pm

Even if you agree with strictly segregated bathrooms in principle, the law in question is just bad. It's unconstitutional, it's unenforceable, it raises more problems than it solves (even the other 'bathroom bills' I've seen wouldn't try to force someone who's undergone gender reassignment surgery to use the gender on their birth certificate)... it just doesn't work on any level.
  • 8

Last edited by Absentia on Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Absentia
TCS Moderator
TCS Moderator
 
Posts: 1786
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:46 am
Location: Earth
Show rep

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Windy » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:20 pm

You specifically asked what's the problem with "your goals require forcing other people to believe that a transgender person is their identified gender." That's not asking for tolerance, that's trying to force your beliefs unto others. That usually doesn't end well even when your beliefs are rational.

You're saying being against this law requires "forcing" someone to accept that transgender people exist.


No one denies that there exists people who think they aren't the gender they were born with.
  • 0

User avatar
Windy
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 3127
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 11:41 am
Show rep

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Tesseracts » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:21 pm

Nobody has to believe anything about the strangers they share a restroom with.

On the contrary, this bathroom segregation law is an attempt by the government to force trans people to believe they cannot ever transition to a new gender.
  • 7

User avatar
Tesseracts
Big Brother
Big Brother
 
Posts: 9653
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:31 am
Show rep
Title: Social Media Expert

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:49 pm

That law ain't being repealed anytime soon, it seems.
  • 0

Image
User avatar
Deathclaw_Puncher
Knight Writer
Knight Writer
 
Posts: 12452
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:42 pm
Location: Fair Oaks, CA
Show rep
Title: Queen of the Furrets

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Absentia » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:02 pm

Ericthebearjew wrote:That law ain't being repealed anytime soon, it seems.


Like Avi said, the circuit court is almost certain to repeal it for them. The ACLU's case isn't just a slam dunk, it's a slam dunk on one of those toy hoops that toddlers play with.
  • 7

User avatar
Absentia
TCS Moderator
TCS Moderator
 
Posts: 1786
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:46 am
Location: Earth
Show rep

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby CarrieVS » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:06 pm

Let's take a look at the religion analogy.

I'm a Christian. To be tolerant of my religion and to not discriminate against me for it, you don't have to beleive that Jesus of Nazareth existed, or was the son of God.
You don't have to refrain from 'sinning' as defined by Christian doctrine, and if I'm offended by you, e.g, using the name of my God as a curse word, then I can put up with it, or walk away.
You don't have to refrain from criticising Christianity, and if I disagree with your criticism I can either debate the matter with you, or put up with it, or walk away.

You do have to allow me to beleive it and to not pretend that I don't. Otherwise you would be forcing your beliefs on me.
You do have to allow me to do anything you'd allow a non-Christian to do.
You also have to avoid making rules that I wouldn't be able to follow without breaking some rule of my religion, unless you can demonstrate that they're necessary. If, for instance, you made a rule that all members of TCS have to swear an oath[1] of allegience, I would not be able to do that as a Christian, and you'd have to show why the forum couldn't operate without all its members taking this oath, and why making a solemn promise wasn't sufficient. This is known as indirect discrimination.



[1]Swearing an oath meaning to swear on or by or to something, such as a holy scripture, a deity, one's life or the lives of one's family, etc.



Now, let's suppose that instead of beleiving that 2000 years ago a carpenter in Judea was, in fact, God, I beleive that my two X chromosomes are as much of a genetic abnormality as the three chromosome-21s of a certain schoolfriend of mine, and that my vagina and breasts are essentially birth defects.

To treat me with the same degree of tolerance established above for religion:

You don't have to beleive it.
You don't have to refrain from presenting as your birth gender.
You don't have to refrain from criticising transgender people.

You do have to allow me to beleive it and to not pretend that I don't. Otherwise you would be forcing your beliefs on me.
You do have to allow me to do anything you'd allow someone who presents as their birth gender to do.
You can't make a rule that I can't follow without going against my belief that I'm male, unless you can show that it's necessary. Now if you insist that all people assigned female at birth use female toilets, I can't use your toilets without either breaking that rule or going against my belief. That's indirect discrimination.

Indirect discrimination isn't always wrong. It's allowable if you can show that it's necessary. The ball's in your court.
  • 16

A Combustible Lemon wrote:Death is an archaic concept for simpleminded commonfolk, not Victorian scientist whales.
User avatar
CarrieVS
TCS Redshirt
TCS Redshirt
 
Posts: 7103
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: By my wild self in the wet wild woods waving my wild tail
Show rep
Title: Drama Llama

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Australia » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:13 pm

  • 4

YamI JamesT Eyebrows Edgar Logan Eric Michael Tess Sunny Notch Kate Jamish Lao Carp Moo FaceCitizen Aquila Nisi Qinglong Chaise Nullbert NotCIAagent JackRoad Delta MURDA Bert Czar Ambi JulyJack Adric Marcuse SilverMaple Nudge 52xMax Damiana Doma Pumpkin Toy Fry Andro Carrie Snarky Royal RLG Pikajew Windy skooma Kleiner Java Sellers Piter Gisarmbards Grimstone Recluse Esteban Syrup Krashlia Twistappel MacReady Funkotron mcfooty Pseudoman Creepy Kivutar nerd Ladki Jim Youghurt satan GL Angler
Scari
User avatar
Australia
Resident Dickhead
Resident Dickhead
 
Posts: 4227
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:15 pm
Location: Take a wild guess
Show rep
Title: Kentucky Fried Colonel

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby Tesseracts » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:33 pm

11181283_10154097289196518_1167959052497888214_n.jpg
11181283_10154097289196518_1167959052497888214_n.jpg (112.66 KiB) Viewed 5072 times
  • 7

User avatar
Tesseracts
Big Brother
Big Brother
 
Posts: 9653
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:31 am
Show rep
Title: Social Media Expert

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby ShuaiGuy » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:40 pm

<Redacted>
  • 3

Last edited by ShuaiGuy on Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ShuaiGuy
Time Waster
Time Waster
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:38 am
Show rep

Re: ACLU Files Complaint Against Discriminatory NC Law

Postby AboveGL » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:52 pm

CarrieVS wrote:You do have to allow me to beleive it and to not pretend that I don't. Otherwise you would be forcing your beliefs on me.
You do have to allow me to do anything you'd allow someone who presents as their birth gender to do.
You can't make a rule that I can't follow without going against my belief that I'm male, unless you can show that it's necessary. Now if you insist that all people assigned female at birth use female toilets, I can't use your toilets without either breaking that rule or going against my belief. That's indirect discrimination.


Thanks for this Carrie. Everything you've said is spot on, but this especially.

You simply can't act as if you know more about someone's gender identity than they do.
  • 12

AboveGL
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:37 pm
Show rep

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests