Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

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Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 10, 2013 9:12 pm

A lot of you have probably heard of the immigration bill, developed by eight senators, that would grant undocumented immigrants citizenship after a long period, after they've paid back whatever financial burden they've placed on society, and after the borders were secure.

However, one of the clauses regarding border security requires that drones patrol everything within 100 miles of the border. So far, drones have just been used to monitor remote and unpopulated areas of Texas and Arizona, but this expansion would put millions of people (including me, my family, and my coworkers) under surveillance. While this would, I think, probably be struck down my the Supreme Court as a violation of the fourth amendment, there's no reason to let it get that far. Write your senators immediately and ask them to reject that portion of the bill.
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby El Coyote » Fri May 10, 2013 9:16 pm

Are the drones going to monitor the whole border? What I mean with this, would I be able to see a drone if I was in Tijuana?
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 10, 2013 9:22 pm

From what I can tell, the whole of the American side, at least. But no, you wouldn't be able to see the drone. They're very small and very high up. If they were lower or larger then yes, you could see one from Tijuana because it would pass over San Diego.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Fri May 10, 2013 9:34 pm

Isn't Drone Surveillance something that's actually already slated to happen pretty soon? Like...that's what the whole Rand Paul filibuster was about.

*EDIT* sorry, wasn't that detailed. I was under the impression that police are requesting the requisition of drones for surveillance purposes and there's actually not that much resistance in Congress over the idea.
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Last edited by Doodle Dee. Snickers on Fri May 10, 2013 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 10, 2013 9:37 pm

No. Rand Paul was objecting to the fact that the US could use military power, including drone strikes, on US citizens in extreme situations. Of course, this is nothing knew: the US has always been able to use military power in the US in extreme situations. Remember the civil war?
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Fri May 10, 2013 9:39 pm

I know he was talking about that, but as my edit in my earlier post noted, the drones are apparently already pretty much going to be here, regardless. The police want the use of drones and there's not much resistance against the idea.
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 10, 2013 9:42 pm

I know they want to do that, though personally I'm not aware either way of the amount of resistance. I'd imagine they'd face substantial resistance if they actually tried to implement that, but it's hard to say. Or maybe it isn't hard to say and I just don't know.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Fri May 10, 2013 9:43 pm

Aviel, I think they already signed a bill that will allow the police use of drones for surveillance purposes. And nobody is going to stop it, since the majority of people fall into the "If you're not doing anything wrong..." category.
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 10, 2013 9:49 pm

I know of no such bill, although it appears that some police are using drones because they haven't been explicitly banned.

I found some specific poll data. 80% of people are fine with using drones for search and rescue missions (which makes sense), and two thirds are okay with drones for catching runaway criminals. I'm not necessarily opposed to the use of drones in those situations, but I'd want strong guarantees that drones would not be used for surveillance, and a good portion of Americans (a third to a half) are concerned about that.

I think Terry Pratchett responded well to the argument that the innocent have nothing to fear. Here's what he said:

Terry Pratchett wrote:the innocent had everything to fear, mostly from the guilty but in the longer term even more from those who say things like 'The innocent have nothing to fear'.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Fri May 10, 2013 9:55 pm

@ Aviel: To those detractors, I'd say: Sure, because when have the police ever abused surveillance technology?
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Re: Immigration Bill puts Millions in Drone Surveillance

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 10, 2013 10:01 pm

Oh, never. I mean, it's not like the police ever put a tracker on somebody's car without a warrant or use heat sensors to try and determine if somebody's growing marijuana.

BTW, I take back what I said about the obvious unconstitutionality of the use of drones. Apparently, a Supreme Court case in 1989 specified that the police are allowed to view a person's property from public airspace.

EDIT: upon further reading, it doesn't appear that that case has precedential relevance here. The primary argument in that case was that any citizen could have viewed Riley's pot farm flying at an altitude of 400 feet, but drones fly at tens of thousands of feet high, and the police require specialized equipment to see that.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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