Cosby, Bill

What's happening in your world? Discuss it here.
Forum rules
Play nice. We will be watching

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:10 am

Are you a woman who has been raped? If not, then of course you don't know. Neither do I. We don't know what it's like for them.
  • 3

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
--Carl Jung
User avatar
Aquila89
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 3442
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:45 pm
Location: Hungary
Show rep

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby sunglasses » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:34 am

NathanLoiselle wrote:I always have to wonder why, in this day and age (and for a good portion of my thirty seven years), a woman waits to say she was raped. Especially with Hollywood stars where you can bring the media to bear to ensure a trial will happen. Bill might have been able to influence the cops and DA but influencing FOX or CNN is a different level none the less a different arena entirely.


Shame.
Fear.
How the cops treat you.
Guilt.
how everyone else treats you.
Shame.
People not believing you.
Shall I go on?
  • 14

TCS Etiquette Guide

Rules and FAQs

Zevran wrote:Magic can kill. Knives can kill. Even small children launched at great speeds can kill.
User avatar
sunglasses
TCS Moderator
TCS Moderator
 
Posts: 11541
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:52 pm
Show rep
Title: The Speaker of Horrors.

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Marcuse » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:06 am

Oh there's plenty of reasons, no matter what gender you are.

Being unwilling to admit it happened.
Being unsure if you have the right to speak out about it
Denial
"What if I deserved it?"
Admitting you've been victimised like that makes you feel more unsafe because now people know about it
The high profile of a lot of these celebrity cases
  • 13

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Reux » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:49 am

phpBB [video]
  • 0

Eclipsing power is, at times, not only the instrument of demons, but also of gods. Lost, but not forgotten.-Wolfgang Buchner
User avatar
Reux
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:10 pm
Location: Seattle, well, actually Renton
Show rep
Title: Fish Girl

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby MitchG.Robot » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:38 pm

D-LOGAN wrote:Innocent till proven guilty babe. Thass how I rolls, let the legal system take it's course.

JamishT wrote:I was thinking about this and related cases the other night. I think it's really unfair to both the accused and the accuser to publicize rape/molestation accusations. If a person is accused and it becomes public, that person's reputation is destroyed (only those who really know the person will stand by them and not immediately cut them out of their lives or whatever). That's not fair at all.

See, I'm all about law (took Canadian and international law in high school, hope to go to law school in the future), so I've had a bit of trouble reconciling the critical principle of "innocent until proven guilty" with justice in rape cases like this where accusers have been so abused and disadvantaged. But here's what I think is key: the differences between formal court and the court of public opinion. People like to bring in "innocent until proven guilty" as if these two courts are the same, even though they absolutely are not.

Cosby is innocent until proven guilty. That's why he hasn't simply been thrown in the slammer regardless of how many accusations there have been. But this isn't a principle that applies to the real world (the court of public opinion) and people that suggest that it is, or should be, don't realize how selectively they're defending principles of justice.

In a perfect world, Cosby would be just as innocent to the public as he is to the courts, but then in a perfect world, these women wouldn't be harassed for coming forward as (alleged) victims of a crime. There seems to be little attention given to that fact--in a court where you're innocent until proven guilty, would it be allowed for people watching to yell "slut" and "whore" and "greedy bitch" at witnesses testifying against Cosby? Surely not.

You can't try to fix the problems with the real world and only focus on the ones that help the accused. Either aim for real justice and do something about the immense obstacles that victims have in coming forward as well, or take the good with the bad. Especially in this case, where the only person whose fair treatment people are adequately standing up for when they defend Cosby is the one person in this case with the most power--likely more than all his accusers put together.

And of course, different courts have different burdens of proof. Criminal court has "beyond a reasonable doubt," civil court has "balance of probabilities" (you just have to believe they're more likely guilty than not guilty). The court of public opinion has decided it's had its burden met with 20+ women telling the same story, and so Cosby takes a few hits to his career as his sentence. And I think that's its own form of justice that should stick around, up until we fill in the gaps in our formal legal systems.

(Though I'm not trying to target our resident doctor and Amish person here, just some of the more extreme people who argue along similar lines)

*takes a breath*
  • 7

I'm not a bigot--lots of my friends are retarded.

This is just a picture of a pig
User avatar
MitchG.Robot
Commenter
Commenter
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: A little north, a little nicer.
Show rep

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby CarrieVS » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:50 pm

MitchG.Robot wrote:In a perfect world, Cosby would be just as innocent to the public as he is to the courts, but then in a perfect world, these women wouldn't be harassed for coming forward as (alleged) victims of a crime.


In a perfect world, the question of how to treat people accused of crimes would be entirely academic.
  • 10

A Combustible Lemon wrote:Death is an archaic concept for simpleminded commonfolk, not Victorian scientist whales.
User avatar
CarrieVS
TCS Redshirt
TCS Redshirt
 
Posts: 7103
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: By my wild self in the wet wild woods waving my wild tail
Show rep
Title: Drama Llama

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Aquila89 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:56 pm

In a perfect world, probably the mere concept of a crime wouldn't exist.
  • 2

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
--Carl Jung
User avatar
Aquila89
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 3442
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:45 pm
Location: Hungary
Show rep

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Marcuse » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:59 pm

I think the concept of protecting all parties is adequately addressed by the principle of reserving judgement until the case has been properly heard. I find the idea that someone can accuse someone of a crime that damaging and be attacked for it to be awful and counter to the same kind of fairness I'd like to see for Cosby.

I personally find the "court of public opinion" to be something that is way less fair and way less appropriate than any system (organised or otherwise) of assessing these cases. Look at the situation of Matthew Kelly, who was accused of pedophilia but never prosecuted. The man was "punished" by public opinion before it came out that there was no case against him, and it's sad that he lost his job and suffered significant negative public opinion as a result of an ultimately unproven allegation.

That's why I fall down on the side of reserving judgement until things are actually proven. I don't think we should encourage the practice of people being disadvantaged by an allegation which is as-yet unproven and therefore equally likely to be proven right or wrong based on the extremely limited information we have. I also believe that the accusers have the absolute right to have their case heard without prejudgement, and certainly deserve no criticism for having brought these allegations unless they are found to be in some way false, and even then I'd prefer it to be left to the courts to determine the sanction for misleading a trial if it came to that.

I just don't see how encouraging the public to make an uninformed judgement on an extremely complicated case and then act to disadvantage any party to that dispute is wise.
  • 8

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby iMURDAu » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:50 am

Marcuse wrote:I just don't see how encouraging the public to make an uninformed judgement on an extremely complicated case and then act to disadvantage any party to that dispute is wise.


TV ratings.
  • 4

“This is going to become a bad meme,” Todd observed.
User avatar
iMURDAu
TCS Chomper
TCS Chomper
 
Posts: 6752
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:08 am
Location: twitch.tv/beakstore
Show rep
Title: King of Fuh

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Marcuse » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:17 am

I said wise, not profitable ;)
  • 2

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Jack Road » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:26 pm

Marcuse wrote:I said wise, not profitable ;)


Spoiler: show
Image


There you go Marcuse, that's the look every TV Executive who ever existed just gave you.

There is no God Wisdom here.
  • 6

Jack Road
TCS Guerilla
 
Posts: 3507
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:38 pm
Show rep

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby EvilerDictator » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:09 pm

I feel for you, Americans who are feeling like someone close to their heart, who was there throughout their childhood on television.

I give you my pain:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28163593

I'd like to think that a few people thought the same about Jimmy Savile, but from what I hear many people at the time even thought he was a weirdo. People just weren't allowed to even talk about it. Its scandalous.
  • 2

Have me, I'm a love albatross!
User avatar
EvilerDictator
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:31 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Show rep
Title: Love Albatross

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Edgar Cabrera » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:07 pm

Jack Road wrote:
Marcuse wrote:I said wise, not profitable ;)

Spoiler: show
Image

There you go Marcuse, that's the look every TV Executive who ever existed just gave you.

There is no God Wisdom here.

Spoiler: show
So-Vintage.jpg
So-Vintage.jpg (72.77 KiB) Viewed 4610 times

EvilerDictator wrote:I feel for you, Americans who are feeling like someone close to their heart, who was there throughout their childhood on television.

I give you my pain:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28163593

Hoo boy (hoo girl?), I remember the jokes when the Rolf Harris case first broke out.

"See you later, aligator!"

"In a while, pedophile!"

EvilerDictator wrote:I'd like to think that a few people thought the same about Jimmy Savile, but from what I hear many people at the time even thought he was a weirdo. People just weren't allowed to even talk about it. Its scandalous.

Yeah, I was baffled when I discovered that he managed to appear in a special episode of Doctor Who (namely with the Doctor with that coat).

Image
Image
  • 1

James Bond: "Red wine with fish. Well, that should have told me something."
Red Grant: "You may know the right wines, but you're the one on your knees. How does it feel, old man?"
From Russia with Love

"This woman is an idiot without a basic grasp of the English language, and the guy is an abusive creepy weirdo."
– JamesT's review of Fifty Shades of Grey.
User avatar
Edgar Cabrera
Blobber
Blobber
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: Asunción, Paraguay
Show rep
Title: A Masked Brightener

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby blehblah » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:50 am

To add to the list of "why not report it?", I'll enter "because he's Bill fucking Cosby".

The same, unfortunately, is true whenever it's a rich and famous person, and even more so when it's a 'beloved' rich and famous person.

I believe that in the US, many of the folks in-charge of leading offices that are involved in investigating and prosecuting such cases are elected.

Power, money, and reputation also allow one to vilify a victim long before a criminal trial begins.

In the end, the system is designed to protect those who have less power than the state. It goes a bit sideways when the accused has, in some ways, more power and money than the state.

T'is better that ten guilty people go free than one innocent person be condemned. On the other hand, OJ got away with murder, R Kelly is somehow still free, and Bill Cosby... well, who knows?

What I'm saying is that the accuser, in a case like this, is far, far more likely to lose everything than is the accused.

So, uhm, bodycams for all?
  • 2

A quantum state of signature may or may not be here... you just ruined it.
User avatar
blehblah
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 3895
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:16 pm
Show rep
Title: Error General, Panic Colonel

Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby gregfrankenstein » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:20 am

I've noticed a shift in the tone of Facebook discussion about this ever since that horrible Rolling Stone debacle where they backtracked and called a potential college rape victim a big fat liar, because apparently when you go through a traumatic event, two years later you're supposed to know the exact weekend it happened. So now when the topic of Bill Cosby comes up, I'm seeing a lot more WHY WOULD SHE WAIT SO LONG TO CRY RAPE, THAT PHONY and angry diatribes of that ilk.

It's a strange feeling that I'm basically hoping a woman was in fact sexually assaulted, because every time a story backfires like that, it makes people even less likely to come forward, and the rates of reporting are already dreadfully low.

So if you're wondering why a woman would be hesitant to accuse Bill Cosby of a sex crime, look at how quickly we turn on victims the second we think their story doesn't add up.
  • 1

User avatar
gregfrankenstein
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:56 pm
Location: Canadaland
Show rep
Title: Heightener of Fives

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests