Cosby, Bill

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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Marcuse » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:44 pm

I thought the same thing as you did Avi, about the Jimmy Saville situation, before what had happened came out.

The thing is, that celebrity story had implications for the BBC, several hospitals and the child protection services of several local authorities. These aren't minor issues, and aren't something I'd like to have forgotten about because the guy who did it was a celebrity. Indeed, that very fame protected his activities until after his death, and meant he got away with things he should have been arrested for. While some celebrity stories are admittedly dross, (I'm thinking what celeb A said to celeb B) some stories are about serious crimes that should be publicised because they're a reflection on how power can be abused by people who sometimes have the most trust among society. I understand sensationalist bias, but I don't think that abuse cases should be ignored because it's a criminal allegation or because a celebrity is involved.

I guess a good test is: is this story important only because a celeb is involved, if it's not, then there's probably something to look at there.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:22 pm

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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Jack Road » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:29 pm

News just means "this company that makes profit on you reading things they write, thinks you will read this, and therefore they will make profit"

I'm not sure why anyone thinks news means anything else.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby JamishT » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:59 pm

FaceTheCitizen wrote:
JamishT wrote:I was thinking about this and related cases the other night. I think it's really unfair to both the accused and the accuser to publicize rape/molestation accusations. If a person is accused and it becomes public, that person's reputation is destroyed (only those who really know the person will stand by them and not immediately cut them out of their lives or whatever). That's not fair at all.


Most celebrities that are accused of rape and/or sexual assault/abuse almost always recover. Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant, John Travolta, several NFL players, and much more. Their past with rape accusations are often forgotten or treated as not being a big deal.

And as Aquila said, if he can't brought to justice, they can at least let the world know who he really is. It might seem unfair to Cosby, but it was unfair he raped them.


It's incredibly unfair if he didn't actually do any raping. I don't appreciate allegations presented as fact, and with allegations of rape, there are very few people who don't automatically take it as fact (besides the numbskulls who reflexively victim-blame). I don't know enough about Cosby or them to make a decision about who to believe. I realize that I might sound sexist or something because I don't immediately believe the accusers, but in my experience, accusations aren't always true.

Anyway, I'm not talking about just celebrities. I'm talking about your average person. Having accusations leveled against them can often result in losing jobs, friends, and all that jazz, even if the accusations were baseless and recanted later. Yes, raping someone is a very very very bad thing and people who do it should be punished. Accusing someone of rape when they didn't do it? I don't know if I'd put it on the same level, but it's still really bad.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Marcuse » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:19 pm

I realize that I might sound sexist or something because I don't immediately believe the accusers, but in my experience, accusations aren't always true.


I agree with you on this Jamish, I don't like how we seem to err on the side of guilty until proven innocent in cases where the crime is one of the worst we have laws for. Maybe I say that from a unique perspective, but I do feel that we need to stop treating people differently because of allegations before they are proven. It's a nasty thing to do, even if it's in the name of protecting victims. It's a seriously difficult line to tread, because I don't for a second think that we should ever equate a tentative approach to allegations as disbelief of victims (potential or otherwise). I prefer to hold judgement in abeyance until such time as concrete evidence on the subject is forthcoming.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:26 pm

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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Jack Road » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:28 pm

Marcuse wrote:I agree with you on this Jamish, I don't like how we seem to err on the side of guilty until proven innocent in cases where the crime is one of the worst we have laws for. Maybe I say that from a unique perspective, but I do feel that we need to stop treating people differently because of allegations before they are proven. It's a nasty thing to do, even if it's in the name of protecting victims. It's a seriously difficult line to tread, because I don't for a second think that we should ever equate a tentative approach to allegations as disbelief of victims (potential or otherwise). I prefer to hold judgement in abeyance until such time as concrete evidence on the subject is forthcoming.


I agree, even though I stand on another side of the aisle. I tend to believe the accused. My point throughout everything is, distrust the disconnect. Just like you would with a friend. If Acquaintance A says Acquaintance B lies all the time, don't think "Well Acquaintance B is such a liar isn't he" think "What reason does Acquaintance A have to say Acquaintance B is a liar?" Always judge reason of presentation before accepting the presentation.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Marcuse » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:31 pm

I don't think the allegations against Cosby are false because at least sixteen women have accused him and accusations have been happening since 2000.


The problem is Face, is that nothing about there being lots of allegations means anything in relation to their truth or falsehood. I'll be perfectly honest here, there seems to be a clear financial interest to claim you've been abused by a celebrity, especially when the reported crimes are after the statute of limitations, so the alternative suggested by the representative of these accusers in the case of Cosby is to provide a fund of $10 million for them. I'm sorry, but until the allegations are proven, one way or the other, I don't think it's fair to do more than reserve judgement.

Because I don't want to be killed, I'm saying that there is a plausible explanation for someone to make a false allegation, not that these people have made false allegations, because again, I am reserving judgement on that in absence of information.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Aquila89 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:57 pm

It's actually a fund of 100 million. The demand was made by Gloria Allred who represents three of the accusers. So, not every accuser has a financial interest.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Marcuse » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:15 pm

The demand was made by Gloria Allred who represents three of the accusers. So, not every accuser has a financial interest.


Again, I didn't say that those accusers were making false accusations, or even that they had a financial interest in anything. I said that there can be plausible reasons to make a false accusation and in the absence of proof, I wouldn't like to judge either way.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Cordslash » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:35 pm

Do you guys really remember Bill Cosby? At the time the Cosby Show aired? It was the biggest show on TV and he was numero uno. I was a kid at the time, like Theo, and wished my dad could be like Bill. He and his family were my heroes. And they just happened to be black.

I think it's fairly easy for our younger members to not quite understand just how big of a star Bill Cosby was, and how huge an impact he made in the world. Yes, the World. At least the part that had television.

My father left early and my mother worked long hours, so Bill and Claire Huxtable became my surrogate parents. Can you remember the episode when Bill taught Theo how to shave? Sure, go ahead and google it cause it's bound to be on youtube somewhere. But I remember it to this day because it's how I still shave. My dad never had that talk with me.

And that's the thing. If all the allegations against Bill Cosby are true then it's a terrible terrible thing. But. I don't want them to be true.He was my dad. And I'd wager the dad of many other people my age.
So maybe that's why so many people are being so circumspect with this.
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Last edited by Cordslash on Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Jack Road » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:56 pm

I can group with Vimes on this, although my introduction was later. When I left my rather caustic upbringing, I spent a good while addicted to sitcoms. The Cosby Show and Rosanne taught me about family. While I am prepared to approach these claims with reason, learning Bill Huxtable raped someone is like learning Mr. Rogers murdered train conductors.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby Aquila89 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:13 pm

CmdrVimes wrote:I think it's fairly easy for our younger members to not quite understand just how big of a star Bill Cosby was, and how huge an impact he made in the world. Yes, the World. At least the part that had television.


Not in Hungary. When news sites here write about the scandal, they have to explain who Bill Cosby is. I don't think The Cosby Show ever aired on Hungarian TV.

Lucky for me right now, I guess.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby NathanLoiselle » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:06 pm

Aquila89 wrote:Exactly. I mean, what do you want to do here? Tell us what we should and should not discuss? Who made you the arbiter of that? There are many, many things we talk about here that aren't really "news", just curiosities. If you don't like that, tough tits.


I knew some tough fits once. Had a switchblade and everything.
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Re: Cosby, Bill

Postby NathanLoiselle » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:14 pm

I always have to wonder why, in this day and age (and for a good portion of my thirty seven years), a woman waits to say she was raped. Especially with Hollywood stars where you can bring the media to bear to ensure a trial will happen. Bill might have been able to influence the cops and DA but influencing FOX or CNN is a different level none the less a different arena entirely.
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