In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A serious

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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby Lindvaettr » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:04 pm

DamianaRaven wrote:
Vordr wrote:Blah blah blah


I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying the argument that this country needs to maintain a cheap and exploitable population to survive. "Allowing" people to live here illegally so that they'll do shitty jobs for nearly nothing is no better than slavery. The simple fact is, American citizens ARE willing to harvest produce and farmers CAN afford to pay minimum wage - it's just cheaper for everybody not to is all.

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/f ... od-prices/
http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=9357


Oh, I don't mean to imply that we shouldn't pay them minimum wage. We absolutely, positively, should be paying them minimum wage, and I think minimum wage should be higher than $7.50. Every person here should be able to have a decent life, and contribute positively to the economy (being paid enough is essential to that, so they can buy things). But keep in mind that farmers are required to pay American citizens minimum wage, most offer significantly more, and people STILL don't want to do the job.

That's the point I was trying to make. Not that we need to pay them as little as possible, but that often times, immigrants from central and South America are the only ones willing to do incredibly labor-intensive work like that for anything approaching what a farmer can pay. Harvesting is often much harder than factory work, so people expect pay comparative to factory work (~$20) which many farmers simply can't afford, given the number of workers they need. Immigrants working 10 hour days for $10 an hour is more than they're getting paid now, but is much less than the vast majority of born-and-raised Americans are willing to do the same work for.
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:48 pm

Vordr wrote:I do think that we need to really push illegal immigrants to find work. I think offering them security in the knowledge that if they're working we won't deport them would do wonders. My take on it is that if you're contributing somehow, they are earning their right to stay, and we shouldn't threaten to send them back home. Unfortunately, at the moment, we make it very difficult for illegal immigrants to get work. That's the first thing, in my mind, that needs to change.


That all sounds very rational and civilized, except for that part about them being here "illegally." Our country has an EXTENSIVE program of guest workers, and we let people of all nations come here to attend schools or get specialized medical help. We give people political asylum if they're being persecuted or tyrannized. The definition of an "illegal" immigrant is someone who has NOT BEEN REGISTERED in our databases or acknowledged as a welcome and productive member of society.

I don't think that offering illegal immigrants the knowledge that if they're working, we won't deport them, would do any kind of wonders I'd want to witness. All that would do is exonerate and empower the businesses who hire illegal immigrants... illegally. Employers don't hire illegals out of the goodness of their hearts, you know. They do it so they can cut corners and pocket the difference, all the while swearing their business would "go under" if they had to pay decent wages and follow industry standards. If people were suddenly and officially allowed to stay "so long as they were working," you'd see wages and living standards dip sharply, since quitting or getting fired would always hold the unspoken threat of banishment. The citizenship process is already set up to give priority and preference to people who have lived here as guests, so why would we want to reward or assist those who sneak in?
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby AJBulldis » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:50 pm

I might work on a farm someday. Could be fun. Just need to get a driver's licence first so that I can go somewhere that isn't a major metropolitan area with significant public transit.

I have a part time job that's fairly labor intensive, and I do enjoy it. Only downside is it doesn't end until fairly late (for a job anyways) and thus knowing that I have to get up early in the morning for my real job.
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby Lindvaettr » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm

Did you read my first post, Damiana? I already addressed (I thought sufficiently) the idea that it's easy to come here legally. The bottom line is that it's too expensive for the people who need the work the most. It's unlikely that a poor man from Guatemala has the education or skills necessary to come here on a work visa. He absolutely doesn't have the money necessary. The way we have things set up right now, if you're not educated to the point of being able to get into college or have one of the jobs we claim we want, or if you don't have tons of money laying around, you really can't get in legally.

The problem with arguments like yours is that they're made (or appear to be made) with a severe lack of knowledge of the immigration process. Illegal immigrants don't come because they want to avoid taxes. Growing up in a rural farming community, I've met illegal immigrants. I've spoken to them. My girlfriend, who I've already established as being an immigrant, has known many, many illegal immigrants. None that I've met, not that she's met, have ever wanted anything else than to become a tax-paying citizen. They don't want a free ride, for the most part (some do, to be clear, but the vast majority do not), they just want to be able to make it in a country where they actually have a chance at something better than what they can do where they come from.

I think you're being almost offensively generalizing in hand-sweeping all illegal immigrants under the rug as undesirable, simply because they're breaking the law.
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:37 pm

Vordr wrote:I think you're being almost offensively generalizing in hand-sweeping all illegal immigrants under the rug as undesirable, simply because they're breaking the law.


First of all, I am NOT (in any way) ignorant of the immigration process. I live in Texas, where I am ass-deep in immigrants of all variety, mostly of the Mexican persuasion. My husband's grandparents immigrated here legally, and they were sharecroppers - the poorest sort of farmer one can be, I think. My nephew is half Honduran, y puedo hablar, cuando necesario. Really, the only thing you've established in your argument is that it fucking SUCKS to be poor and on that point, we're in complete agreement. I'm wondering, though... do you make the same excuses for convicted felons who resort to theft or drug dealing because they've been permanently locked out of the workforce due to a single crime?

As I see the world, it's not OK to break laws just because you've got a sad sob story. Despite what you seem to believe, the immigration laws you're so keen to disregard were not written in the spirit of stinginess and elitism. I don't know if you've paid attention to current events, but the American economy can not sustain much more poverty before things start getting a tad Dickensian around here. You make it sound like this poor, Guatemalan turnip farmer will take one deep breath of this fine, American air and be instantly liberated of whatever ignorance, bad luck, or defeat of spirit had been holding him down for a lifetime.

Besides, if this plucky little farmer is clever, hard-working, and resourceful enough to be an asset to the American economy, then why should he be discouraged from applying those talents to overcoming whatever ignorance, corruption, or tyranny has besieged his own home and people? Will he get to bring his entire family with him, or will they be left behind to hope and pray that they aren't forgotten, or else be in far worse shape if they are? What does this country really have to offer poor Esteban that would be worth abandoning his own home and people for?
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby ToixStory » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:43 pm

I admit, I used to be against any immigration reform of this sort, coming from Texas and all. Then, I happened upon an article of Cracked of all places about a white Australian and his ordeal to come to the United States. If it is so difficult for a man with a steady, high-end job to immigrate from one first-world country to another, let alone from Mexico, Guatemala, or anywhere else, then there is something very wrong with the system. After all, aren't we supposed to be the country that can quote:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:24 pm

ToixStory wrote:I admit, I used to be against any immigration reform of this sort, coming from Texas and all. Then, I happened upon an article of Cracked of all places about a white Australian and his ordeal to come to the United States. If it is so difficult for a man with a steady, high-end job to immigrate from one first-world country to another, let alone from Mexico, Guatemala, or anywhere else, then there is something very wrong with the system. After all, aren't we supposed to be the country that can quote:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


A lovely sentiment, that, but it's not our national anthem. It's only a bit of poetry on a statue - if the American people and government actually believed in such starry-eyed idealism, we wouldn't have an Immigration Department at all.
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby ToixStory » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:04 pm

DamianaRaven wrote:A lovely sentiment, that, but it's not our national anthem. It's only a bit of poetry on a statue - if the American people and government actually believed in such starry-eyed idealism, we wouldn't have an Immigration Department at all.

Well, considering said statue is:
Image
I think it matters a little bit more than an easy dismissal. And hey, I do believe in that idealism. All of my ancestors arrived in the late 19th century to this great country and passed beneath the gaze of that statue. Call it misplaced idealism or not realistic, but I'd like to believe that we could aspire to be that kind of country again.
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby Gen.Knowledge » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:22 pm

I think that there should be some path towards some form of citizenship for illegals. Maybe if they become a form of psuedo citizen where they would be protected by most of the laws your average US citizen is, but with a few limitations on their political power and limits on aid and such. They'd also have to pay taxes although a lot of them are very poor so I suppose they could get some form of tax break for the first few years before they get established. Their children could become normal citizens when they grow up.

Just my two cents. The issue is one big clusterfuck really
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby DamianaRaven » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:48 am

Gen.Knowledge wrote:I think that there should be some path towards some form of citizenship for illegals. Maybe if they become a form of psuedo citizen where they would be protected by most of the laws your average US citizen is, but with a few limitations on their political power and limits on aid and such. They'd also have to pay taxes although a lot of them are very poor so I suppose they could get some form of tax break for the first few years before they get established. Their children could become normal citizens when they grow up.

Just my two cents. The issue is one big clusterfuck really


This strikes me as a decently civilized compromise. I've never been on board with that whole "round 'em up and kick 'em out" attitude, particularly toward people who have lived here and held down jobs for years without incident. I'm not at all opposed to immigration - I just think it's bad policy to "look the other way" for people who (for whatever reason) cannot or will not cooperate with the process. This is NOT to say that illegal immigrants are bad people or accuse them of "stealing" something they don't deserve - I actually tend to see them more as victims of a system that encourages illegality in order to maintain a cheap, exploitable labor force.

Amnesty doesn't work as a general policy because when you legalize a "peon's" status and remove the threat of detention and deportation from the job description, then you will have liberated said peon from the desperation that had theretofore made him such a conveniently servile worker drone. People who have rights and protections under American labor laws tend to stop putting up with bullshit abuses and illegally low wages. I believe, as a nation, that there is absolutely NO EXCUSE to exploit the desperation of any group of people to provide ourselves with a permanent underclass that we can congratulate ourselves for "rescuing" as we subject them to a standard of living we feel is beneath our dignity.
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby ToixStory » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:53 am

Gen.Knowledge wrote:I think that there should be some path towards some form of citizenship for illegals. Maybe if they become a form of psuedo citizen where they would be protected by most of the laws your average US citizen is, but with a few limitations on their political power and limits on aid and such. They'd also have to pay taxes although a lot of them are very poor so I suppose they could get some form of tax break for the first few years before they get established. Their children could become normal citizens when they grow up.

Just my two cents. The issue is one big clusterfuck really

And it's Gen. Knowledge for the win with his idea. Very much agreed. Your rank is well deserved, I must say.
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby Lindvaettr » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:36 am

They already have that. You're basically describing a green card. That's the first step on the path to citizenship after a visa, and the very first one between "illegal immigrant" and "citizen". We have those already.
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby Matthew Notch » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:18 am

So why aren't those good enough? I'm not saying they are, but why aren't they, then?
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Re: In the News: Pros and Cons of Immigration Reform, A seri

Postby Lindvaettr » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:43 pm

They're plenty good. The problem is getting them. At the moment, it costs a huge amount of money to even get a visa to put yourself on the list for getting your Green Card. Some illegal immigrants ARE given them, but it's not common, and it's mostly only if you turn out to have family here. When I say "become citizen" I mean, as I think most people do, "put on the path to citizenship", which means making it easier for illegal immigrants to get Green Cards.

So, for those of you confused (and I should have been more clear) replace "become citizens" and such in all my previous posts with "be put on the path to citizenship". Going from GC to citizenship is a pretty straight-forward path. Going from nothing->visa->GC or nothing->illegal->GC is much harder, and is what costs a ton of money.
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