An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in America

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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:01 pm

Tesseracts wrote:I don't know a lot about how abortions work, but people who get abortions are consenting to have something put in their vagina anyway, right?

Yes, but not a transvaginal ultrasound. Consent to have on thing inserted does not become consent to have anything inserted.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby Tesseracts » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:02 pm

DamianaRaven wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:However, personally I'm a little wary of describing medical procedures as rape.


I totally share your wariness in this regard, Tess! However, the more I think about this story, the less it sounds like a "medical procedure" and the more it seems as if the local cops shanghaied hospital resources to abuse and violate a man who (for whatever reason) pissed them off. Doing stuff to a person's butt (or any part of their body, really) for this reason is quite the definition of rape, I would say. God only knows what kind of persuasive tactics were used in the "several hours" it took to change the staff's mind!
I agree completely, this guy should add rape to his lawsuit if he can. I was more talking about in general.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby OrangeEyebrows » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:07 pm

I will be sadly disillusioned if you prove correct, Damiana. I think you're correct about the motivation, though. This feels to me like something that was done to humiliate. (At least initially - I do wonder if the later procedures were because they realised they'd gone too far and really wanted to find evidence of wrongdoing to "mitigate" their actions).

During those procedures, the suit alleges, police officers mocked, harassed and berated Eckert. They also repeatedly misplaced the privacy curtain, exposing Eckert to a public hallway during "intimate and humiliating searches."


http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-ne ... ims-police
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby OrangeEyebrows » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:11 pm

Sorry for the double post, but this is interesting as well:

Dougherty, a deputy district attorney in the 6th Judicial District, is named in the suit for his alleged role in approving a questionable search warrant. Dougherty denies approving the warrant Eckert claims allowed officers to search his anal cavity.


It's been established that the warrant was not valid in the place or at the time where the hospital procedures took place, and that it did not allow for a colonoscopy, but here the district attorney seems to be denying that he approved a warrant for an anal cavity search at all.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby LaoWai » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:38 pm

Regarding the transvaginal ultrasound: At the least it's a defined law; i.e., If you consent to an abortion, you also consent to this other preliminary procedure. The consent question isn't an issue. (Is the law wrong? Yes, definitely. Is it rape by the State? No, not technically.)

I don't think I want to live in a world, however, where leaving my home equals consent to having stuff put up my butt. (Hell, even stepping into the Ram's Head Inn bar and tavern wearing chaps isn't legally defined as giving consent to having stuff put up my butt.) Were they to pass a law that said that was the case, I'd think it was utterly wrong and would probably protest it (preferably from the safety of my own home), but I wouldn't call it rape--just a move toward totalitarianism.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:41 pm

You're conflating legal and moral classifications. Obviously if it's explicitly sanctioned by law then it's not legally rape, but one can still consider it rape for moral purposes. Legality does not imply morality.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby DamianaRaven » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:43 pm

Tesseracts wrote:I don't know a lot about how abortions work, but people who get abortions are consenting to have something put in their vagina anyway, right? I don't know if it still counts as something done without consent if the patient consents to an abortion. Either way the law is wrong.


Having been in those stirrups myself, I can confidently concede that you have a valid point about the whole consent to vaginal... shenanigans. In order to perform a traditional D&C, something's going all up in there, to an extent that makes the ultrasound wand seem downright fun by comparison. I was, however, not subjected to this process... thankfully.

My objection to compulsory transvaginal ultrasounds is that, except in very rare and complicated abortions, they are IN NO WAY medically necessary to get the job done safely. A standard abdominal sonogram will tell the staff everything they need to know. The point of doing it transvaginally is to provide a much clearer image and sound of the fetus. The only motivation I can imagine for such a requirement would to either emotionally manipulate a woman to change her mind or failing that, to add weight to the emotional and moral trauma of having to make such a decision.

I don't feel as though this quite constitutes an act of rape, but it is nonetheless a disgusting shit shot aimed directly at someone who - believe me - is more than likely feeling quite wretched enough without anyone else's patronizing help. You put it best when you said, "the law is wrong."
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby 52xMax » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:50 pm

I might agree with you on transvaginal probing, Tess.

However... well, first of all, What Lao said about power and control. I was gonna respond almost the same thing and he beat me to it.

Second (and I mean it when I say I don't want to derail a thread yet again, but some of you have already addressed this), what happened to these men in New Mexico was clearly obtrusive and non-consensual. Vaginal probes were approved by women wanting to terminate their pregnancy. And yes, that procedure is needless, obtrusive and its sole purpose is to shame already pregnant women into not having an abortion. Women who agree to have it are definitely coerced since they don't have other alternatives and that's why it should be ruled unconstitutional. But I'm not sure we should be calling that rape either. Under a very similar definition (coercion into agreeing to have sex) it could be argued that prostitution is also a form of rape. Not that I would agree with that definition, but someone might.

Back to the matter at hand and quoting from the second article Tess linked:
And that drug dog, Leo? He hasn't been certified since 2011:
We've learned more about that drug dog, Leo, that seems to get it wrong pretty often. He might be getting it wrong because he's not even certified in New Mexico.
If you take a look at the dog's certification, the dog did get trained. But his certification to be a drug dog expired in April 2011. K-9s need yearly re-certification courses, and Leo is falling behind.


It's not the dog's fault. As cracked (a reputable scientific source, no doubt) has pointed out, sniff dogs are biased by their handlers subconscious prejudice, which in these cases seems pretty obvious. This seems just like and Ad Canidae attack on poor Leo.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby LaoWai » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:09 pm

aviel wrote:You're conflating legal and moral classifications. Obviously if it's explicitly sanctioned by law then it's not legally rape, but one can still consider it rape for moral purposes. Legality does not imply morality.

Moral classifications of rape are difficult to codify. Legal classifications are easier to deal with, even though they may sometimes be wrong. (The famous example is the old, old, old Italian law that ruled it wasn't rape if a man didn't ejaculate). Now, legally, there's generally the basic criterion of informed consent, which in this case has been thoroughly violated. Legally, this case is a rape case, pure and simple.

Note that this is not intended to downplay how terribly wrong I feel it is for the State to force unnecessary medical procedures on any of its citizens through writ of law. I just meant to point out that, legally, this case is literally rape, whereas the question of transvaginal ultrasound (again, legally) is only figurative rape.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby OrangeEyebrows » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:16 pm

Not directed at anyone in particular, but I think perhaps we can leave the issue of transvaginal ultrasound behind, lest we derail into a discussion of abortion or rape definitions. Obviously feel free to start a new thread to discuss the issue of transvaginal ultrasound, legal vs moral definitions of rape, or anything else. In this thread, let's stick to discussing the case in question.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby DamianaRaven » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:50 pm

This case? It fucking sucks a bag of severed dicks is about all I have left to contribute...
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:56 pm

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/11/06/second-anal-probe-lawsuit-filed-against-nm-police?src=usn_tw
Apparently, this case was not the first time this has happened. I think my theory was right.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby LaoWai » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:25 pm

Man, it sounds like this dog "Leo" really has a thing for being the instigator in cases of anal probing. Either that or the police themselves are just sadistic jerks with no sense of what their job really is. (Hint: Anal probing of a suspect marked by a non-certified drug-sniffing dog is not the job; protecting citizens from grevious assault is the job.)
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby OrangeEyebrows » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:26 pm

Ericthebearjew wrote:I think my theory was right.


Maybe, Eric. I'd imagine getting off on enemas is pretty rare, but sadly getting off (on whatever level) on someone being humiliated and powerless is not. What a world.
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Re: An update on the state of forced colonoscopies in Americ

Postby Nostraa » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:24 pm

I'm quite curious of what had led to these cops and doctors going so far. I wish I could open up their heads and peer inside their thoughts to figure out how such a thing could have escalated to such an insane degree. Which is totally why I'm ordering The Lucifer Effect aand...Obedience to Authority. Hopefully they will enlighten me on the subject. I don't know... looking at this world such stuff appears very weird to me. I would like to be able to think that if such a thing happened that I would be the first to stand up and stop it. However I have never been in such a situation so I don't really know. I'm sure everyone here also agrees that they would stand up for the poor guy and be the first to be outraged if such a scene was before them. BUT... how do you really know that? Statistically I can't believe that everyone involved in this situation is evil. That's all.
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