America works?

What's happening in your world? Discuss it here.
Forum rules
Play nice. We will be watching

America works?

Postby jayman419 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:17 am

I'll put this out there. I'd love to see another "New Deal" type wave of construction projects across the country. I think there are three main areas where we could do with some major overhauling.

1) Move all wires underground. Cable, power, phone, fiber, all of them. A good chance to upgrade internet connections nation-wide while we're at it.

2) Since we're digging anyway, let's look at sewage and water lines. In the past couple of days, Pittsburgh has had a fire that required crews to use a tanker truck to traffic water to the scene because the 4-inch pipe that fed the hydrants nearby didn't have enough pressure to allow them to do their job. And the storms last night caused some pretty severe flooding (up to a foot deep in many places). I'm sure we're not the only city that could stand to improve these.

3) Bridges, under/overpasses. Other roadwork. It's not that I think they're all going to fall down tomorrow, but it's definitely an aging infrastructure that could do with a lot of work.

The government authorized the Treasury to spend up to $700 billion to buy bad investments. This current budget "crisis" isn't anything but a pissing contest between those who have long wanted to cut certain programs and those who have long wanted a higher tax rate on rich people. Without taking sides, I'm saying that the federal government could help state and local officials with a bond release to fund projects like this.

Real work generates real value, and tax dollars. Better roads means less wear and tear on vehicles. Improved municipal services for everyone means improved efficiency and less expensive emergency situations. Faster internet allows the web to grow. Working on the power lines offers an opportunity to create a smarter grid. It would be an expensive investment, but it would generate incalculable returns.
  • 1

Even after all this time, the Sun never says to the Earth "You owe me".
Look what happens with a love like that... it lights the whole sky.
~Hafiz
User avatar
jayman419
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:40 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Show rep

Re: America works?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:42 am

This is exactly what I've been advocating for. But we should educate ourselves on the facts so that we know for what we're arguing.

The American Society of Civil Engineers estimates that it would cost $2.2 trillion to repair all of America's infrastructure (though possibly much less since the stimulus package was passed). Considering our $16.2 trillion deficit, one might reasonably ask "Can we afford this right now?"

Yes, we can. The US has a long-term deficit problem due to the growth of mandatory spending programs like Social Security and Medicare. You can take a look at this graph charting medicare growth and it becomes quite obvious how unsustainable this is at current trends. However, in the short term, our debt is not a problem. Our debt hasn't affected our credit rating, only congress' refusal to raise revenues and consideration of default has. However, even after the downgrade, the interest rates on our national debt have remained so low that we're inflating out of them, and we're not even inflating that much. This means that borrowing money is cheaper than free: we're nearly being paid to borrow money.

That means that we can acquire the money to spend on construction and it doesn't affect our long term debt problem, because that's caused by long term growth of mandatory spending programs, not short term spending on stimulus. What can we predict the economic effect of this stimulus is? Well, it's probably going to be positive. The CBO estimates that the 2009 stimulus provided up to millions of jobs, and economists predicted that, if it had passed, the proposed American Jobs Act (that Republicans blocked) would have added another 1.3 million to 1.9 million jobs.

In terms of GDP, the IMF estimates that the Keynesian Multiplier is about 1.6, meaning that every dollar the US spends in stimulus money creates a growth, on average, of $1.60 in GDP. So if we spend $2.2 trillion as the ACSE recommends, we can predict GDP growth of about $3.5 trillion over that period. Over a five year period, that's about a growth of $700 billion a year (or 4.6% of GDP) which some argue is enough to solve our long term social security problem. And that's growth on top of existing GDP growth of about 3%. If we assume only $1.1 trillion spent over the same period, then that's only 2.3% in extra GDP growth, which still makes GDP growth 5.3%, a number higher than we've seen since 1984.

Of course, higher employment and higher GDP mean more tax revenue which means, in the long term, a smaller deficit. The data clearly indicate that everyone, from deficit hawks to those worrying about inflation to those concerned exclusively with employment, should be behind the ACSE's plan. We have the data, and we know that this works. So why aren't we doing it?
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
Learned Nand
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Location: Permanently in the wrong
Show rep
Title: Auditor of Reality

Re: America works?

Postby Gen.Knowledge » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:37 pm

Making things more efficient should be, in my opinion, the most important goal. Making the most of your resources is just common sense. This includes maintaining current infrastructure and keeping everything in working order. A massive public works project like the ones you guys described seems like an excellent idea as well.

Basically not only making the physical infrastructure of the country more efficient but also eliminating the bureaucracy that bogs things down so much. Basically every single law that was ever written comes down to one of two philosophies - "Don't be a dick" and "I'm a dick, give me more power". Not that complex.

It probably wouldn't hurt to gut the tax system and create a new one that doesn't require as much paper work to manage and doesn't have as many loopholes.

We should move away from oil/coal in terms of power generation; the the alternative energy sources we have need to be improved and some new ones would be nice. I don't think we should abandon oil/coal completely though. As polluting as they are you cannot deny how useful they can be in many applications (not just power making).
  • 0

User avatar
Gen.Knowledge
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:12 am
Location: I don't know, but it's dark and I hear laughing.
Show rep
Title: General of the Internet

Re: America works?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:19 pm

Some people are working on a tax code overhaul but it's almost certainly going to fail in both houses of congress just because it's bipartisan and probably controversial. And complexity stacks up fast: the last time the tax code was overhauled wasn't the 19th century, it was 1986.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
Learned Nand
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Location: Permanently in the wrong
Show rep
Title: Auditor of Reality

Re: America works?

Postby ToixStory » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:49 am

This sounds both wonderful and depressing in that we have so much potential for good but won't get to it because our current political system is too divided to work together on anything. I, for one, would be more than happy to join a Works Program at this point. Not to mention the benefits of a superior infrastructure would be massive in the long term. Wouldn't it be nice to tell people that it's America with the best internet service?
  • 0

I make maps and map accessories.
User avatar
ToixStory
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:03 pm
Location: Arlington, TX
Show rep

Re: America works?

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:08 am

We will probably never have better internet service than, for example, South Korea, because they're a developed country like us but they're much, much smaller. Still, our infrastructure really is shameful.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
Learned Nand
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Location: Permanently in the wrong
Show rep
Title: Auditor of Reality

Re: America works?

Postby Lindvaettr » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:54 am

Nonsense, Aviel. We have phone coverage and TV on par with much smaller countries. The problem isn't size. The problem is lack of regulations. When telegraph, telephone, radio, and TV became core methods of transmitting information, the government ruled that providers had to provide access to all places equally. When things got bad, like with AT&T, they broke up monopolies and prevented one corporation from having total control of a given area.

It's different with internet. In fact, some places (Seattle comes to mind, for example) have signed contracts with ISPs that ensure no other ISPs will be allowed to operate in the area for a certain period of time. Things like that are what is preventing the US from having adequate internet access. It costs a ridiculous amount of money for decent internet in Seattle because Comcast has no competition. They have no need to provide service better than 15 Mbps for most people.

Sure, we might not be able to get down to $10 for 100 Mbps like in Sweden, and things like that, but there's nothing preventing us from providing 100 Mbps, 1 Gbps, or anything else to everyone in the United States at an affordable price other than lack of competition and, as always, crony capitalism.
  • 0

User avatar
Lindvaettr
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Various, depending on time and day
Show rep
Title: Lord of the Dance

Re: America works?

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:10 am

Vordr wrote:Nonsense, Aviel. We have phone coverage and TV on par with much smaller countries. The problem isn't size.

This is a good point. Now, I don't know if state-enforced monopolies are why our internet access is shit, but I am open to that possibility, and it would be great if you could find some evidence to substantiate that opinion.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
Learned Nand
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Location: Permanently in the wrong
Show rep
Title: Auditor of Reality

Re: America works?

Postby Lindvaettr » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:48 am

I'll look up some stuff later, if I'm really feeling like researching that. Until then, I can provide you with a few numbers from memory.

Comcast Xfinity in Seattle (if I remember right), costs something like $2/Mbps after the first 12 months. This could be wrong, but it's what I seem to remember, roughly. They just upgraded to allow customers to get 100 Mbps for something like $200/month. Comcast is the only ISP in the Seattle area due to their contact with Seattle (note that there's a couple others that do FiOS and things, since that's not part of the contract).

Where I live, in the middle of nowhere, South Dakota, in a place where we have 3 good ISPs (well, two good and one big one that sucks) I've been able to get 100 Mbps internet the entire I'm I've lived here for $100 a month. I can't afford that, but at the moment I get 50 Mbps for about $50. Bonus, while Comcast goes out constantly and they charge you for service calls if they can't find the problem (which happens most of the time), I get free service calls no matter what, and almost never have outages.

The same seems to be true in many places. Comcast likes to sign contracts, which they can do because they're big and have lots of money.
  • 0

User avatar
Lindvaettr
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Various, depending on time and day
Show rep
Title: Lord of the Dance

Re: America works?

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:53 am

I'm familiar with a few pricing disparities, but really I'm looking for an expert or study indicating that removing these state-enforced monopolies would increase the quality of internet coverage throughout the US. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of removing them anyways.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
Learned Nand
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Location: Permanently in the wrong
Show rep
Title: Auditor of Reality

Re: America works?

Postby Lindvaettr » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:04 am

Just look at history, Aviel. Phones, radio, etc. were exactly the same as internet is today until the federal government forced corporations to provide equal and fair service. It takes only a basic understanding of corporations to recognize that this is true. Corporations are, by definition, doing what they're doing for the money. There simply isn't much, if any, money in providing service in certain places.

For example, cell phones suffer the same problem as internet. The town I grew up in didn't have any cellphone service because there weren't enough people (the population was like 400 people) to make it worthwhile for Verizon to put up a tower close enough to give our town service. You could kind of get it on a clear day up on a hill, which was enough for Verizon to say our town had service, but real service didn't appear until just a few months ago, because of costs.

Internet is similar. Even without state-enforced monopolies, it becomes massively unprofitable for one company to try to break into another company's market. Let's say that Comcast's contract with Seattle expires (I think it's set to, soon). Does that mean internet will suddenly improve because more ISPs will come? No. Because no only does that ISP have to set up all their own lines (something phone, radio, etc. doesn't have to deal with due to government regulation) but they also have to try to lure customers away from Comcast. This means an ISP would have to put in an enormous amount of money in order to hopefully break only slightly into a market already controlled almost 100% by Comcast.

So places with only one major ISP are always going to be at a major disadvantage because the ISP in control has essentially no pressure to provide anything more than adequate service. They aren't in danger of losing to the competition, they aren't in danger of getting sued unless they don't deliver on what they promise in their contract with the customers, so they can really do whatever they want. Fundamental changes to the system are required.

Anyway, I think we've derailed Jay's thread quite enough. He had a great idea, one that I've been advocating for a long time, and I'd hate to ruin that.

I support public works projects. They're amazing for the economy and for society as a whole.
  • 0

User avatar
Lindvaettr
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Various, depending on time and day
Show rep
Title: Lord of the Dance

Re: America works?

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:20 am

I'm sorry, but I can't place any value on your speculation. I don't know what you might be omitting or what factors you might not be considering. I don't know which of your economic assumptions are valid, etc. I really do need data.

Speaking of data, you're right, it clearly indicates that these public works projects would be an excellent thing for everyone. No person who understands the evidence could reasonably object, which means that there's still about 95% of the country left to convince.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
Learned Nand
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Location: Permanently in the wrong
Show rep
Title: Auditor of Reality

Re: America works?

Postby AJBulldis » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:58 pm

You guys, nothing short of a benevolent and absolute tyrant would make any of this happen in the next 30 years. Even if the Democrats won majorities in both the House and the Senate and had a guy in the White House, they'd be more caught up in their pet projects than anything to sustain this country for another century.

Politicians want to do things that make them look good while they are still interested in being in office. A project half a century later that highlights their genius is useless to them.
  • 1

Moo
AJBulldis
Commenter
Commenter
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: An Open Field
Show rep

Re: America works?

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

AJBulldis wrote:You guys, nothing short of a benevolent and absolute tyrant would make any of this happen in the next 30 years. Even if the Democrats won majorities in both the House and the Senate and had a guy in the White House, they'd be more caught up in their pet projects than anything to sustain this country for another century.

Probably true. You'd need relatively substantial popular support for this idea to get their attention and that's not going to happen. If we're lucky, we'll get a smaller stimulus before 2016.

Politicians want to do things that make them look good while they are still interested in being in office. A project half a century later that highlights their genius is useless to them.

This has benefits now. Look at my post. Employment and GDP benefits are immediate.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
Learned Nand
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Location: Permanently in the wrong
Show rep
Title: Auditor of Reality

Re: America works?

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:14 pm

Good news, everyone! Colbert and CNN have joined our cause! Maybe this can finally get some political support. We can only hope. Well, and write our congressmen.
  • 1

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
Learned Nand
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Location: Permanently in the wrong
Show rep
Title: Auditor of Reality

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests

cron