US/North Korea Talks Proposed

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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Crimson847 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:15 pm

Well, that didn't last long.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-kore ... posterous/

It looks like the administration hasn't actually changed the policy on this matter--they're still requiring denuclearization as a prerequisite for talks, just as previous administrations have.

Rumor has it that Trump announced he was accepting the meeting just to get some positive buzz in the media, and never actually expected it to end up happening. This tends to support that theory.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Crimson847 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:02 am

A recent AP report says that North Korea's nuclear testing site has "likely" collapsed.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2018/A-stu ... 43070fef8e

Research by Chinese geologists suggests that the mountain above North Korea's main nuclear test site has likely collapsed, rendering it unsafe for further testing and requiring that it be monitored for any leaking radiation.

The findings by the scientists at the University of Science and Technology of China may shed new light on North Korean President Kim Jong Un's announcement that his country was ceasing its testing program ahead of planned summit meetings with South Korean President Moon Jae-in and U.S. President Donald Trump.

The results also support some of the findings of an earlier study by another group of Chinese researchers that was published last month by the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

Nuclear explosions release enormous amounts of heat and energy, and the North's largest test in September was believed early on to have rendered the site in northeastern North Korea unstable.


If accurate, this would certainly change the math for them. Why not agree to halt nuclear testing for a while if your testing site collapsed?
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"If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them; but the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:49 am

There are various theories about what caused the change in Kim's behavior. China put him in his place? The new president of South Korea is willing to engage with him? Now that he has nuclear capability, he can pretend to disarm? But it's all guesswork. We don't know what motivates him, because he's the absolute ruler of an intensely secretive state; we know very little about him. Look at his Wikipedia article: we don't even know for sure when he was born. How could we know how he thinks?

Trump supporters are already crediting him for achieving peace in the Korean Peninsula and saying that he should get a Nobel Peace Prize. Such celebrations are premature. There were inter-Korean summits before. In 2000, Kim Jonh-il met and shook hands with South Korean president Kim Dae-jung. They signed a declaration about peace and collaboration and formally ending the Korean War. Kim Dae-jung later won the Nobel Peace Prize in part for his work for reconciliation with North Korea. Didn't exactly work out.

In 2007, there was another inter-Korean summit. Kim Jong-il met and shook hands with South Korean president Roh Moo-hyun. Yet again they talked about formally ending the Korean War. North Korea agreed to disable their nuclear facilities by the end of the year "in a move that the Bush administration hailed as a diplomatic victory that could serve as a model for how to deal with Iran" as the New York Times wrote at the time. And nothing came of it.

This time, things are a different though; the North Korean leader went to South which has never happened before, and there's a planned meeting between the US president and the North Korean leader, also never happened before. But still, declarations are easy. North Korean leaders don't have to fear that their people will call them to account if they don't keep their promises.

But I have to admit, painful as it is, that part of me wants this to fail. Rationally, I know that success would be great. But the idea that Trump is responsible for this causes me intense cognitive dissonance. It's not just that I hate him. I don't want to believe that the way he behaves - acting like a deranged goon, making threats on Twitter, giving Kim a schoolyard nickname - is a successful approach to international diplomacy. I want to believe that maturity, self-restraint, expertise and careful language are necessary. On an emotional level, this is more important to me than peace in Korea. And it's just terrible that I feel like that. It's pathetic.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Absentia » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:15 pm

It has nothing to do with Trump. North Korea has never had any real reason to listen to the United States and I see no reason to believe that has changed. China pulls the strings there, and any meaningful outside pressure had to come from them.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Windy » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:06 pm

Aquila89 wrote:But I have to admit, painful as it is, that part of me wants this to fail. Rationally, I know that success would be great. But the idea that Trump is responsible for this causes me intense cognitive dissonance. It's not just that I hate him. I don't want to believe that the way he behaves - acting like a deranged goon, making threats on Twitter, giving Kim a schoolyard nickname - is a successful approach to international diplomacy.


quick call drumpf an orange cheeto, tell him his hands are big, dox people who voted for him again, make some more smug condescending comments, call people racists because they don't like sharia law, post some more stupid harry potter memes, sip on your $20 coffee, this will surely stop drumpf this time because his voters will switch sides after seeing how much more mature and dignified we are

On an emotional level, this is more important to me than peace in Korea. And it's just terrible that I feel like that. It's pathetic.


it's OK, politics turns everyone into either a nihilist or a zealot. at least nihilists are infinitely more tolerable.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:43 pm

I think the role of Dennis Rodman is vastly understated in all of this. He was on Celebrity Apprentice and also spent time hanging out with Kim Jong Un. This isn't six degrees, these are direct relationships.

I'm still thinking this is a play to be taken seriously. It'll be more like them going past their knees into the cold waters of being taken seriously. And they'll call out to someone they don't respect, based on idk "dotard", in hopes of anyone noticing they've got wrinkly toes and the capability to splash far distances away. Which everyone knows about and still laughs because dude seriously, jump in and stop living in the 50's.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:38 pm

Windy wrote:quick call drumpf an orange cheeto


I never did that. I don't call him Drumpf.

Windy wrote:dox people who voted for him again


I never doxed anyone.

Windy wrote:call people racists because they don't like sharia law


I never did that, never called you a racist, never called any forum member here a racist.

Windy wrote:post some more stupid harry potter memes


I don't post Harry Potter memes.

Windy wrote:sip on your $20 coffee


I don't drink $20 coffee.

Windy wrote:this will surely stop drumpf this time because his voters will switch sides after seeing how much more mature and dignified we are


I don't think Trump voters read what I write here, and even if they did, it definitely wouldn't have any impact on them.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Windy » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:00 pm

Technically Bin Laden never flew airplanes into buildings

I don't think Trump voters read what I write here, and even if they did, it definitely wouldn't have any impact on them.


Your vote doesn't have any actual impact either you know

I don't drink $20 coffee.


You should
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:05 pm

Do you know that I'm not an American? I'm a Hungarian who reads too much about American politics. This is a waste of time, and off-topic, so I'll stop arguing. The topic here is North Korea.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby IamNotCreepy » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:22 pm

Let's keep the conversation civil and on topic, please.

As for the topic at hand -- Aquila, I totally get where you are coming from. I think it's a terrible way of doing diplomacy, and if outside factors happen to come together to work in our favor at the same time Trump is doing these things he will think that it's an acceptable way to handle things.

I definitely think this has to do with them no longer being able to test their nukes, so they can say they're giving it up without it actually costing anything.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Windy » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:23 pm

Image

Image

These people are wrong, it's clear that the president of South Korea and his foreign minister know nothing about foreign politics, he needs to get impeached like the last president, if only he listened to random people on the internet for their opinions on international diplomacy, I bet he's never even played Civilization VI before. *sips $2000 latte*
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:29 pm

As we know, politicians and diplomats are always honest. There's no way they are saying that because they know Trump loves flattery and they want to get on his good side. If they thought Trump deserves little or no credit, they'd obviously say it and risk alienating him.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Windy » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:50 pm

Is this the part where we pretend we're rational skeptical people who question authority and it's totally not just because we're biased because we don't like being proven wrong?

Politicians and authority can't be trusted
Also we should let them police our speech
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:57 pm

Windy wrote:Politicians and authority can't be trusted
Also we should let them police our speech


And yet again something I've never said.
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Re: US/North Korea Talks Proposed

Postby Kate » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:04 pm

This is the part where we listen to a mod who has asked us to remain civil, please. Baiting and sarcasm are not in line with that goal, Windy, and I would ask that anyone who responds further please take posts in good faith and talk to each other respectfully. And if anyone can't do that, maybe take a break from this thread. It is possible to make the same points without being insulting about it. This thread will be locked if this simple request can't be followed.
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