Florida school shooting

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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Aquila89 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:49 am

Crimson847 wrote:School shootings are almost always perpetrated by students of the school, usually a current student. You can't categorically keep students out of a school the way you can keep enemies out of a fortress in wartime, by barring the gates and/or shooting anyone who tries to gain entry. Fortification is designed to defend a position from external attack, not an attack from within.


I did write that there isn't much of a chance for the fortification of schools; and even if it was possible, I don't think it's desirable. It'd create a terrible environment for students. That's how I feel about NRA proposals after mass shootings (arm teachers, more people should carry guns, etc.) What kind of a society would that be, where everyone carries a weapon and constantly on the edge, waiting for the next mass shooting?
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Crimson847 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:19 am

Aquila89 wrote:
Crimson847 wrote:School shootings are almost always perpetrated by students of the school, usually a current student. You can't categorically keep students out of a school the way you can keep enemies out of a fortress in wartime, by barring the gates and/or shooting anyone who tries to gain entry. Fortification is designed to defend a position from external attack, not an attack from within.


I did write that there isn't much of a chance for the fortification of schools; and even if it was possible, I don't think it's desirable. It'd create a terrible environment for students. That's how I feel about NRA proposals after mass shootings (arm teachers, more people should carry guns, etc.) What kind of a society would that be, where everyone carries a weapon and constantly on the edge, waiting for the next mass shooting?


Oh, I got that you weren't exactly endorsing the idea of turning schools into impregnable fortresses. I just felt that even in the process of rejecting it you were giving it a bit too much credit, rejecting it on the basis of cost, logistics, or deleterious side effects rather than on the more fundamental grounds that it simply wouldn't have the desired effect.

Plus, I forgot to mention those points earlier and had them rattling around in my head, so frankly I was looking for an excuse.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby LaoWai » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:02 pm

Crimson847 wrote:You could try implementing stringent screening processes, with metal detectors and the like at strategic checkpoints, but then the shooter is given the obvious option of simply attacking the checkpoint. Any rigorous security screening is going to involve delays. Delays mean lines, and lines mean targets hanging around outside the secured perimeter.


This! Whenever I read suggestions of turning schools into impregnable fortresses, I think about this. How far out do we set the cordon for medal detectors and security? If the cordon is too close to the actual school, all it'd take is for a shooter to sit and wait until the busiest time of passing the checkpoint. Put the cordons much further out, and you'd better be prepared to buy up a lot of land in most inner-cities and lose a lot of efficiency.

For that matter, if schools are still operating like mine did when I was going, a bomb threat'd get a lot of bodies outside in the "safe area," which would actually make it easier to find a big target. If there's a shooter outside and a bomb threat inside, where do you run? (This question first occurred to me after we had a fire-drill at a university I taught at, just after some campus shooting in another state.)

As for armed teachers, especially in a bomb-threat scenario like above, what good is a teacher with presumably a hand-gun against a person with a rifle, especially one with a rifle that can fire 30 times before reloading? I'm sure our president would charge toward the sound of gunfire, but I'm equally sure I'd be, like, shit, where do I take cover until he has to reload.

The idea of teachers with concealed carry permits raises some difficult implementation questions vis-a-vis the idea of metal detectors: If you set up metal detectors, but teachers don't have to go through, is that really fair to students? Isn't that just infringing on one group's rights (i.e., 4th amendment) over another group's? And if "That's OK, because safety," then isn't the NRA's favorite Ben Franklin quote just another bit of bull used for rhetorical effect? If only some teachers are allowed to bypass the metal detectors, isn't that sort of a red flag about who's carrying?
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby iMURDAu » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:16 pm

Aquila89 wrote:What kind of a society would that be, where everyone carries a weapon and constantly on the edge, waiting for the next mass shooting?


The NRA's utopia. Something that would keep Remington from going out of business. Daily life in a number of urban areas in America. A society that doesn't take any shit. Or shits because they're too uptight to poop. One that experiences mass shootings on the regular because everyone keeps shooting at each other. One where you'll get plugged full of holes after dropping a lightbulb. Shall I continue?
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Marcuse » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:21 pm



Trump's America???
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby random_nerd » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:59 pm

LaoWai wrote:The idea of teachers with concealed carry permits raises some difficult implementation questions vis-a-vis the idea of metal detectors: If you set up metal detectors, but teachers don't have to go through, is that really fair to students? Isn't that just infringing on one group's rights (i.e., 4th amendment) over another group's? And if "That's OK, because safety," then isn't the NRA's favorite Ben Franklin quote just another bit of bull used for rhetorical effect? If only some teachers are allowed to bypass the metal detectors, isn't that sort of a red flag about who's carrying?

In the states students apparently don't have 4th amendment rights on school grounds, or at least those rights are a bit.. restricted. Students have been expelled (and even later tried in juvenile court) after forced searches of their lockers, backpacks, purses, etc.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby reallifegirl » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:44 pm

One thing I genuinely wonder: all of these safety measures seem designed to be implemented in high schools, but what on earth are they gonna do about college campuses? Especially since the worst school shooting in the US is still Virginia Tech, with the University of Texas sniper also making the top 10 list of worst shootings.

Metal detectors could maybe be feasible for individual buildings/the dorms, but what about the campus itself? Are they gonna check every car that comes in, including universities with thousands of students? If you arm the teachers, how is one professor with a gun gonna protect an entire lecture hall? What if your 'campus' is located in a large city (i.e. NYU), so there's no real way to check people 'on campus' without also forcing people outside the college to undergo the same checks?

Small side note: I technically was in college during an incident with a gunman on campus. And by that I mean a guy showed up with a mask and a gun and was tackled the second he walked onto campus, with no shots fired, in the most anticlimactic gun scare in all of history. Also, the gunman only remembered to bring one bullet with him, so there was that.

I still don't think the incident would have been helped if all of us students who had to go into lockdown had also been packing heat, especially since my main memory of all of this was "No one knew what the hell was going on or if there were still gunmen to be worried about, and there was no real way to communicate to all of campus effectively because text alerts hadn't become as much of A Thing yet."
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby LaoWai » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:28 am

random_nerd wrote:In the states students apparently don't have 4th amendment rights on school grounds, or at least those rights are a bit.. restricted. Students have been expelled (and even later tried in juvenile court) after forced searches of their lockers, backpacks, purses, etc.

Yep, this definitely happens. If you're not as angry about that as I am, then please take the thumbs-up and don't read on.

First amendment rights violations happen all the time, too (trust me). Somehow, though, we've worked ourselves into a situation where almost all other amendments can get suspended in schools in order to protect the 2nd, and only the 2nd. Hell, even school dress codes represent a violation of the ninth as far as I'm concerned. (I'm guessing many people don't even know how that differs from the first.)

I won't get into the ridiculous examples I've been party to or seen happen, but I have seen violations of the 1st and 4th amendments on the basis of, "Well, Timmy, we let any nut have assault rifles, so now that you wrote an angry poem how do we know you're not one of those really nutty nuts who might use one to kill people?" How about not giving any nut an assault rifle? "Well, Timmy, you're just the sort of nutty nut we're worried about. Let's check your locker." We won't even get into the goofy administrative version of justice.

Turning school into a police state doesn't make students feel safer. It makes students feel angrier, guiltier, and more confused. We're already brought up in a system that tells us we have all these rights, in theory; then people use greater authority to infringe upon those rights consistently. I'd guess this is the main reason "gun-free" zones are often targeted, whereas others assume it's because they're "softer." People felt violated in their rights, so they exercised that right "We the people" won't infringe upon.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby jbobsully11 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:29 am

random_nerd wrote:
LaoWai wrote:The idea of teachers with concealed carry permits raises some difficult implementation questions vis-a-vis the idea of metal detectors: If you set up metal detectors, but teachers don't have to go through, is that really fair to students? Isn't that just infringing on one group's rights (i.e., 4th amendment) over another group's? And if "That's OK, because safety," then isn't the NRA's favorite Ben Franklin quote just another bit of bull used for rhetorical effect? If only some teachers are allowed to bypass the metal detectors, isn't that sort of a red flag about who's carrying?

In the states students apparently don't have 4th amendment rights on school grounds, or at least those rights are a bit.. restricted. Students have been expelled (and even later tried in juvenile court) after forced searches of their lockers, backpacks, purses, etc.

This, essentially. I remember reading about that case in my US history book in high school (What, you mean you didn’t read your textbooks for fun?), but I forgot that happened in New Jersey.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby random_nerd » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:46 am

LaoWai wrote:
random_nerd wrote:In the states students apparently don't have 4th amendment rights on school grounds, or at least those rights are a bit.. restricted. Students have been expelled (and even later tried in juvenile court) after forced searches of their lockers, backpacks, purses, etc.

Yep, this definitely happens. If you're not as angry about that as I am, then please take the thumbs-up and don't read on.

Oh no, as a former non-adult and avid enjoyer of having human rights, I'm quite horrified about how we just plain don't give minors rights apparently.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Crimson847 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:51 pm

LaoWai wrote:
Crimson847 wrote:You could try implementing stringent screening processes, with metal detectors and the like at strategic checkpoints, but then the shooter is given the obvious option of simply attacking the checkpoint. Any rigorous security screening is going to involve delays. Delays mean lines, and lines mean targets hanging around outside the secured perimeter.


This! Whenever I read suggestions of turning schools into impregnable fortresses, I think about this. How far out do we set the cordon for medal detectors and security? If the cordon is too close to the actual school, all it'd take is for a shooter to sit and wait until the busiest time of passing the checkpoint. Put the cordons much further out, and you'd better be prepared to buy up a lot of land in most inner-cities and lose a lot of efficiency.

For that matter, if schools are still operating like mine did when I was going, a bomb threat'd get a lot of bodies outside in the "safe area," which would actually make it easier to find a big target. If there's a shooter outside and a bomb threat inside, where do you run? (This question first occurred to me after we had a fire-drill at a university I taught at, just after some campus shooting in another state.)


Another option that sometimes gets used is to pull the fire alarm.

Wikipedia wrote:On the night before the shooting, [Andrew] Golden assisted [Mitchell] Johnson in loading his mother's Dodge Caravan with camping supplies, snack foods, nine weapons (Remington 742 .30-06 rifle, Universal .30 M1 carbine replica, Ruger .44 Magnum rifle, Smith & Wesson .38 revolver, Double Deuce Buddie .22 two-shot derringer, FIE .380 pistol, Star .380 pistol, Ruger Security Six .357 revolver, Davis Industries .38 two-shot derringer, and a Charter Arms .38 revolver),[4] which had been stolen from Golden's grandfather's house, and 2000 rounds of ammunition. The following morning, the boys drove in the van to Westside Middle School. As they arrived, Golden pulled the fire alarm while Johnson took the weapons to the woods outside of the school. Golden then ran back to the woods where Johnson had taken the weapons. When children and teachers filed out of the school, the two boys opened fire. The boys killed four female students and one teacher and wounded ten others. Golden and Johnson attempted to run back to the van and escape, but police captured them. The boys evidently planned to run away, as they had food, sleeping bags, and survival gear in their van.


Sharp-eyed readers might note that this took place at a middle school. As with most school shooters, Golden and Johnson were students at the school in question--they were 11 and 13 respectively at the time of the shooting.

On that note, Wikipedia's description of their plans deserves some elaboration. As it happens, the boys told police they had figured if they skipped town in the van and hid in a nearby forest for a few days or weeks, people would forget what happened and everything would blow over, just like if they'd sworn in church or broken a dish or something. Hence the food (which was the sort of "food" you'd expect unsupervised kids to pack) and survival gear. It's like something out of Tom Sawyer, if Tom was a mass murderer.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby IamNotCreepy » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:34 pm

I'm Avi can elaborate more, but the landmark case laying out the rules for students' constitutional rights is Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District.

This establishes the Tinker Test, which in short requires that the school must demonstrate that a restriction of a student's constitutional rights must be necessary in order to prevent disruption to the school's mandate of educating and safeguarding the students.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby reallifegirl » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:09 pm

So, uh, the question of 'what will go wrong if we arm all our teachers' has been answered surprisingly quickly.

DALTON, GA. – An armed teacher has been arrested after shots were fired at a high school in a small town in northern Georgia.

The Dalton Police Department reported that “shot or shots” had been fired at Dalton High School just after 11:15 a.m. on the department’s official Twitter account.

Minutes later, DPD added that the armed suspect was barricaded inside a classroom at the school and urged parents not to come to the school.

Students were transported to the Northeast Georgia Trade Center for pickup, according to the DPD.

At 11:23 a.m., the department tweeted an update that read “The teacher is in custody.”

No students were harmed, and no children were in danger during the incident, according to the DPD.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby IamNotCreepy » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:30 pm

reallifegirl wrote:So, uh, the question of 'what will go wrong if we arm all our teachers' has been answered surprisingly quickly.

DALTON, GA. – An armed teacher has been arrested after shots were fired at a high school in a small town in northern Georgia.

The Dalton Police Department reported that “shot or shots” had been fired at Dalton High School just after 11:15 a.m. on the department’s official Twitter account.

Minutes later, DPD added that the armed suspect was barricaded inside a classroom at the school and urged parents not to come to the school.

Students were transported to the Northeast Georgia Trade Center for pickup, according to the DPD.

At 11:23 a.m., the department tweeted an update that read “The teacher is in custody.”

No students were harmed, and no children were in danger during the incident, according to the DPD.


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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Absentia » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:57 pm

Surprised nobody has mentioned it yet: Dick's Sporting Goods, the largest sporting goods retailer in the country, has announced they will no longer sell assault rifles (Dick's branded stores haven't sold them since Sandy Hook in 2012, but their outdoor specialty Field & Stream stores have up until now). They're also eliminating sales of high capacity magazines and restricting all firearms sales to customers over 21 years old.
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