Florida school shooting

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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby sunglasses » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:42 pm

The idea of having teachers open carry horrifies me.

In a panic situation, they could easily shoot themselves or someone else.

What might actually help is keeping door locked or having a remote shut down protocol with shutters to keep people out. Bulletproof glass would be great too.

Less chance of accidentally shooting someone.

Have a buzzer with an intercom to get in after school starts. He should not have been able to get in the building this easily.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Aquila89 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:34 pm

Trump also said that armed teachers will deter school shooters because they are cowards. I think that's nonsense. School shooters aren't rational actors. And a lot of them kill themselves at the end of their rampage, so they aren't afraid to die either.

LaoWai wrote:It's more of a prediction. By my calculation, it'll be called fake news by about this time next week, probably after it's been turned into a meme. I'm not yet sure how it'll get denied, but I'm pretty sure it will. Or else it won't be his own notes. Maybe, "As I was walking out there, someone just handed me the card. It's just some guy who gets coffee or something. I don't need notes, something, something."


Well, maybe they will call it fake news, but that doesn't make it a "blatantly fake photograph."
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Crimson847 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:27 pm

Honestly, the uproar over Trump's notes confuses me a bit. I totally get that it's awfully sad we have a president who needs to remind himself to make the victims of a tragedy feel like he's listening to them and hearing them. But the thing is, the notes appear to be an attempt at improving that situation and offering better support to those in need. They certainly do imply a sad underlying reality (which Trump opponents already knew about or at least suspected), but in and of themselves they are a good thing. As a rule I don't like humiliating people over a visible attempt to improve, regardless of how unskilled the attempt reveals them to be.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Cobra-D » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:27 am

Crimson847 wrote:Honestly, the uproar over Trump's notes confuses me a bit. I totally get that it's awfully sad we have a president who needs to remind himself to make the victims of a tragedy feel like he's listening to them and hearing them. But the thing is, the notes appear to be an attempt at improving that situation and offering better support to those in need. They certainly do imply a sad underlying reality (which Trump opponents already knew about or at least suspected), but in and of themselves they are a good thing. As a rule I don't like humiliating people over a visible attempt to improve, regardless of how unskilled the attempt reveals them to be.



I mean it's better then him just saying things that come to him naturally, so it's best he just reads from the cards.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby JamishT » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:14 am

Today on Morning Edition, they interviewed the superintendent of Holliday Independent School District in North Texas, where teachers have been packing heat since Sandy Hook. Some highlights of that interview to me were

The Supe wrote:...part of our policy, or, part of the effect of this policy is we don't necessarily let anyone know who's armed or how many. But the policy does allow for the school board to allow certain members of our staff to conceal carry on campus.


GREENE: I was talking to a teacher this morning. She's one of the leaders of the National Education Association. She was saying that she would never want to carry a weapon, ever. It sends the wrong message to her students, she feels like. Would a teacher in your district ever be forced or pressured to carry a gun?

DYES: Absolutely not. And our program would be voluntary. And basically because it's concealed carry, the students should never know whether an employee or teacher of the school district is carrying. And that's really part of our program, is that the concealed aspect of it.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby DoglovingJim » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:07 am

JamishT wrote:Today on Morning Edition, they interviewed the superintendent of Holliday Independent School District in North Texas, where teachers have been packing heat since Sandy Hook. Some highlights of that interview to me were

The Supe wrote:...part of our policy, or, part of the effect of this policy is we don't necessarily let anyone know who's armed or how many. But the policy does allow for the school board to allow certain members of our staff to conceal carry on campus.


GREENE: I was talking to a teacher this morning. She's one of the leaders of the National Education Association. She was saying that she would never want to carry a weapon, ever. It sends the wrong message to her students, she feels like. Would a teacher in your district ever be forced or pressured to carry a gun?

DYES: Absolutely not. And our program would be voluntary. And basically because it's concealed carry, the students should never know whether an employee or teacher of the school district is carrying. And that's really part of our program, is that the concealed aspect of it.

That actually settles some fears that I had (if a student decided to stab an armed teacher from behind and then uses her weapon for the shooting), certainly makes it harder if they don't know who is carrying what.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Cobra-D » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:22 am

DoglovingJim wrote:
JamishT wrote:Today on Morning Edition, they interviewed the superintendent of Holliday Independent School District in North Texas, where teachers have been packing heat since Sandy Hook. Some highlights of that interview to me were

The Supe wrote:...part of our policy, or, part of the effect of this policy is we don't necessarily let anyone know who's armed or how many. But the policy does allow for the school board to allow certain members of our staff to conceal carry on campus.


GREENE: I was talking to a teacher this morning. She's one of the leaders of the National Education Association. She was saying that she would never want to carry a weapon, ever. It sends the wrong message to her students, she feels like. Would a teacher in your district ever be forced or pressured to carry a gun?

DYES: Absolutely not. And our program would be voluntary. And basically because it's concealed carry, the students should never know whether an employee or teacher of the school district is carrying. And that's really part of our program, is that the concealed aspect of it.

That actually settles some fears that I had (if a student decided to stab an armed teacher from behind and then uses her weapon for the shooting), certainly makes it harder if they don't know who is carrying what.


Yeah a student can still find out which teachers are carrying.

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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby random_nerd » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:44 pm

sunglasses wrote:The idea of having teachers open carry horrifies me.

In a panic situation, they could easily shoot themselves or someone else.

What might actually help is keeping door locked or having a remote shut down protocol with shutters to keep people out. Bulletproof glass would be great too.

Less chance of accidentally shooting someone.

Have a buzzer with an intercom to get in after school starts. He should not have been able to get in the building this easily.

My school used to run "intruder drills" and had an actual policy in place for if an random dude just showed up and walked into the school. If memory serves, that actually did happen once, but was a false alarm or something. Come to think of it, that incident may have been what made them come up with such a policy.

Basically we just shut off the lights, locked the door, and all moved to the part of the room you couldn't see from the thin little door window. They had a codeword they'd give over the intercomm too so we'd know to do it without (blatantly) tipping the guy off.

I'm not sure how effective it would actually be or not.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Crimson847 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:23 pm

I'm fine with allowing concealed handgun license holders to carry on campuses, just as they're legally allowed to carry everywhere else.

That said, while it's pretty clear that a "good guy with a gun" can sometimes stop mass shootings in progress, I really think it's more important to focus on preventing this kind of stuff from happening in the first place. On that end, my impression is that a lot of pro-gun commentators are misunderstanding the motivations of rampage shooters in general and school shooters in particular. Most criminals want to get something from you and then escape without getting harmed or caught. Rampage shooters are different: as a rule they plan to die in a hail of bullets, and in many cases they turn their guns on themselves if that doesn't pan out quickly. Which means that trying to deter a rampage shooter with the threat of a violent death is like trying to deter muggers by threatening to give them your money.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Aquila89 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:23 pm

Well, yeah, I wrote about that, they want to die. But before that, they want to kill people; if they just wanted to die, they'd simply shoot themselves. So if schools became heavily guarded fortresses, that might deter them, because they'd think that they'd get shot before getting to kill anyone. And they'd choose a different target, like a McDonald's, or whatever. There isn't much of a chance of making schools that heavily guarded though.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:44 pm

Arm the teachers? Okay, but what's stopping the angry macho football coach from shooting up the gay kid? What to do about the freshman teacher Adam Lanza's age who's knee-deep in the manosphere and is a powder keg waiting to go off? What's to stop some disgruntled, middle-aged biology teacher going full-on Falling Down one day?
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby DoglovingJim » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:57 pm

Deathclaw_Puncher wrote:Arm the teachers? Okay, but what's stopping the angry macho football coach from shooting up the gay kid? What to do about the freshman teacher Adam Lanza's age who's knee-deep in the manosphere?

I'm sure to be a teacher they have to do background checks on you (is that done in America)? I don't see why a macho football coach would snap and shoot some gay kid.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby iMURDAu » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:17 am

Yeah come on already it'd be more like Jamal getting shot by a teacher who thought he was pulling a gun out of his desk instead of his homework.

Teachers would be so easy to disarm. I think about how some of my teachers were not in the best physical shape and how others could be easily distracted. But even if you've got a physically fit and mentally sharp teacher a person can be outnumbered and taken down. If a group of kids wants to take over the prison take a gun from a teacher, it'll happen.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Delta Jim » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:22 am

Aquila89 wrote:And they'd choose a different target, like a McDonald's, or whatever.


Which means we need to arm every McDonald's employee.

Deathclaw_Puncher wrote:Arm the teachers? Okay, but what's stopping the angry macho football coach from shooting up the gay kid? What to do about the freshman teacher Adam Lanza's age who's knee-deep in the manosphere and is a powder keg waiting to go off? What's to stop some disgruntled, middle-aged biology teacher going full-on Falling Down one day?


I wouldn't worry so much about those as about how teachers who aren't trained killers are going to respond to having to shoot a kid who they've taught. Especially since we already have a problem with soldiers who ARE trained for the inevitability that they may kill someone being fucked up by the experience when coming back from combat after killing people they DON'T know and who were actively trying to kill them.
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Re: Florida school shooting

Postby Crimson847 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:33 am

Aquila89 wrote:Well, yeah, I wrote about that, they want to die. But before that, they want to kill people; if they just wanted to die, they'd simply shoot themselves. So if schools became heavily guarded fortresses, that might deter them, because they'd think that they'd get shot before getting to kill anyone.


You mean something like a military base?

School shootings are almost always perpetrated by students of the school, usually a current student. You can't categorically keep students out of a school the way you can keep enemies out of a fortress in wartime, by barring the gates and/or shooting anyone who tries to gain entry. Fortification is designed to defend a position from external attack, not an attack from within.

You could try implementing stringent screening processes, with metal detectors and the like at strategic checkpoints, but then the shooter is given the obvious option of simply attacking the checkpoint. Any rigorous security screening is going to involve delays. Delays mean lines, and lines mean targets hanging around outside the secured perimeter.

As for them picking a different target, that that's not how school shooters and workplace shooters generally work. Some are revenge shooters after a specific person or people, and most of the remainder are rampage shooters who are looking to send a message to an institution that they believe acted unconscionably toward them. In both cases the target is central to their reasoning for the crime. They're not likely to just pick a different target because their preferred one is dangerous, any more than Captain Ahab would have just picked a smaller and gentler whale to hunt down because the white whale was dangerous.
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