FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharmed)

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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby Ladki96 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:37 am

It's not going to end well. It's not going to end terribly either, because it simply isn't going to continue :P chill, guys <3 let's get back on track, like sunny said ^^

{{{Valladares and son}}} I think this is certainly a tragedy, and I don't think anyone disagrees, including the FBI or what not. They admitted as much, no? Yes, they messed up a lot, but then again which job in the world has a 100% success rate. There must be countless uncovered stories where FBI did a great deed. Bit callous to think that way perhaps, as a man is still dead for no fault of his own, and I do feel sorry for him and his family. Let us only hope the investigation turns up the truth, and the people at fault are properly punished. It is good that they have nabbed the suspects, at least. Without them this wouldn't have happened in the first place, so I hope they get the sentence they deserve.

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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby Fun With Mr. Fudge » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:40 am

DamianaRaven wrote:But just to be clear, can we all agree that it is 100% not OK to shoot and kill someone whose hands are bound behind their back? Can we also agree that it's not too much to expect of our brave heroes in blue to take juuuuuust enough time to figure out if the person they're about to shoot actually and truly ought to be summarily executed? Not only am I getting tired of watching people being needlessly shot, I've also had enough of seeing my fellow Americans fall on their bellies and wriggle toward the nearest boot with their tongues hanging out.

I am SICK TO DEATH of seeing people demand to know what happened BEFORE the video started rolling. That's not how video works and you fucking know it. Though I have asked, it is yet to be answered (in this thread) just WHAT fucking scenario would have made it OK to shoot a man with his hands taped behind his back and a hood over his head. I'm still waiting and will have ZERO patience for any variation of "naw, but I'm safe because I would never [insert petty bullshit here]!"


I think you're railing against a strawman argument, which is probably why your question went unanswered. Who here argued that it was or could be "OK" to shoot a defenseless hostage? Nobody. Even the post Windy made about the rarity of police shootings doesn't suggest they're "OK" (it would simply mean that most cops don't pose this threat or that cops don't in most situations). In fact, as Sunglasses pointed out, even the FBI said it wasn't "OK." But that doesn't automatically make what happened a "summary execution." It also doesn't mean that one can justifiably assume the FBI recklessly started firing.

There could have been a mistake in perception, a mistake in judgment, a mistake in aim, a freak accident, negligence, or plain old malice on the part of the agent responsible for the shooting (so basically what Sunglasses has already said in slightly different words). But since we don't have the details on what happened, it's hard to say which of those is more likely or whether more than one factor probably applies. So unless you're going to argue that the only way to assess this tragedy "correctly" is to view the agent as a willful villain (as opposed to an accidental one), I don't see why it bothers you that people would want to reserve judgment until they can make a more informed assessment than what current reports permit.
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby DamianaRaven » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:04 am

Ladki96 wrote::P chill, guys <3 let's get back on track, like sunny said ^^


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Fun With Mr. Fudge wrote:There could have been a mistake in perception, a mistake in judgment, a mistake in aim, a freak accident, negligence, or plain old malice on the part of the agent responsible for the shooting (so basically what Sunglasses has already said in slightly different words). But since we don't have the details on what happened, it's hard to say which of those is more likely or whether more than one factor probably applies. So unless you're going to argue that the only way to assess this tragedy "correctly" is to view the agent as a willful villain (as opposed to an accidental one), I don't see why it bothers you that people would want to reserve judgment until they can make a more informed assessment than what current reports permit.


So you're saying someone FUCKED UP... like, really really bad for any number of inexcusable, assheaded reasons? Glad we're on the same page!
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby Tesseracts » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:27 am

I respect the police more than I respect any other profession. They put their lives on the line every day, and are always at risk of being shot before they can shoot somebody else. It's an enviable position. Not being shot, but shooting other people. The police are the only people who can shoot people all the time and get away with it, and this is the kind of freedom I strive for in my everyday life. Don't get me wrong, I don't shoot people, but sometimes you just want to make everyone else pay for things you ruined. I think the cops should continue to shoot more and more people because it inspires the rest of us. Especially people with hands bound behind their back, because I like people who weren't captured. It's called Darwinism idiot.
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby Fun With Mr. Fudge » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:46 am

DamianaRaven wrote:So you're saying someone FUCKED UP... like, really really bad for any number of inexcusable, assheaded reasons? Glad we're on the same page!


No, we're not on the same page. I don't even think we're reading the same book. Why should I deem a freak accident or an error in aim (if either of those happened) "inexcusable" or "assheaded?" How am I supposed to decide how bad a misjudgment is without knowing how that misjudgment was made? Moreover, why should I want to? Simply calling potential explanations inexcusable doesn't make them so. And asking questions which imply that those who disagree with you condone killing innocent people doesn't make your position compelling. In fact, I find it highly reductive and pretty off-putting.
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby DamianaRaven » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:58 am

Very well, then! *curtsies curtly* Good luck groping for an explanation that will make this situation acceptable to you. To each their own. Meanwhile, I'll remain unhappy about it and some-fucking-how, I'll come out psychologically intact. (Just watch - I've seen me do it.)

Cheers!
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby DoglovingJim » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:56 am

Hmm.

DamianaRaven, apologies for assuming but am I correct in believing that you dislike law enforcement in general? That you believe they are more bad then good? At least that's the sort of vibe I have gotten several times with the way you have been quick to make judgments, and if that's the case than I'd appreciate if you just flat out say it.


Do you appreciate the work that they are paid to do and the effort they go in to make our communities a safer place? Or for you is it only mishaps like this that you think happen? Do you ever hear of any good things or do you just focus on bad? Do you think that most if not all of em are bad apples and that they got serious problems?
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby CarrieVS » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:00 am

Crimson847 wrote:This doesn't sound like it's going to end well.

Spoiler: show
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I am stealing this gif.

[EDIT to avoid double-posting]

Suppose a child got hit by a car and killed, not because they ran out into the road but while they were walking sensibly along, right where they should have been on the pavement (sidewalk), with a parent by their side.

We would all agree it was a dreadful tragedy. I think most of us would start asking searching questions about why it happened and how it could have been avoided - pedestrians really should be safe on the pavement. But would we jump immediately to vilifying the car driver - who in probably greater than 99% of cases is shocked, horrified, hating themself, and worse affected emotionally by the tragedy than anyone except the victim and their family?

Yes, there's a chance it could have been a deliberate and heinous attack. In that case, condemning them utterly is certainly an appropriate response once we know that.

Much more likely it was an accident for which the driver is in some degree culpable. They could have been intoxicated, the car could have been unroadworthy, they could have been going far too fast for the road conditions, they could have just not been paying attention. In any of those cases, the driver is not the monster they would have been had they intentionally run down a child, and in all probability having to live with what they've done is the worst punishment they can receive, but blaming them for their negligence is still fair once we know that.

There's also a chance it was a freak accident, some combination of unexpected conditions and/or unforeseeable mechanical failure caused them to lose control of the car. Maybe they were an inexperienced driver and lacked the skills to avoid a tragedy in unforeseeably difficult circumstances, or maybe they were just desperately unlucky and nothing could have prevented it. They still have to live with the fact of the child's death, but do they deserve our condemnation, when through no fault of their own they're already dealing with what is likely to be the most traumatic event they've been through?

No matter the reason we could all agree that it was an awful thing and should not have happened. But although we could agree that the driver was probably culpable to a greater or lesser degree, and could potentially even have been malicious, I don't think many of us would talk about them as some people have been talking about the FBI in this case, before we knew what had happened. I certainly don't think people would be being berated for asking those questions about how it happened and to what extent the driver was to blame, and wanting answers before they join in with vilifying them. I'd like to think that - barring the discovery that they did it intentionally - in addition to compassion for the child and their loved ones, most of us would have some empathy for the driver too.
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby SandTea » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:16 pm

I would think it appropriate to not let that person drive anymore.
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby sunglasses » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:02 pm

That...kinda happened to my father in law. Kid darted out from between cars into the street, got hit, died. The officers on the scene initially villified him, as he was young, had just got his license, and was in a sports car. It was only after numerous witnesses came forward, did they accept it was an accident and not reckless driving.

He still has a license, but has never driven anything smaller then a van since.
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby Lindvaettr » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:48 pm

A guy who used to run a small grocery store in the town I grew up in was known for being a rather crazy guy. He was there almost every day, from 6AM to 11PM. He was very quiet, not nice, didn't ever talk to anyone even when you were buying groceries from him. He was weird in a lot of other, indescribable says too. "Squirrely" we kids called him. We all figured he was just a crazy old man, and we were making the kind of jokes you'd expect teenagers to make about a crazy old man. We'd sometimes steal candy and chips and stuff from there, because until you were ready to check out, he'd just sit in the back room watching an old TV.

It turned out though, that he used to be a really nice, happy, friendly guy who loved everyone and would go out of his way to help anyone with any issue at all. That was until the early 90's or so. Until one day, his neighbor's 3 year old daughter was outside playing. He was backing his car out of his driveway, and the kid was small enough that he didn't notice her rushing behind his vehicle. He didn't go to prison, or get in legal trouble, but he stopped being friendly and helpful and talkative after that. He just sat alone all day in his grocery store.

The parents of the kid have been devastated their entire life since then, I'm sure, but they had a couple more kids, had decent jobs, and seemed to live pretty good lives. They might never have gotten over it, but they were able to move on. He never was. I can't imagine anything worse than accidentally killing a child.
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby Kate » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:14 pm

I'm not sure how I feel about the implication that if someone accidentally kills my child, at least I'm just the mother of the dead child and can go on to have more kids instead of the person who accidentally killed my child. I wouldn't want to be either person but personally I don't think I can imagine anything worse than losing a child except for this: my absolute worst nightmare is the combination of the two, where I accidentally kill my own child. Sucks for everyone.

As for how this applies to the FBI, I think it's okay to feel rage over trained individuals failing to such a degree in a climate where these things are regularly swept aside and covered up by authorities. I wish I could trust that an honest investigation would result in some kind of justice or improvement, but my trust is broken by so many instances of people in authority causing tragedies without steps taken to protect the public from a reoccurrence. I have great respect for law enforcement officers who do their jobs right and protect us, but I get to do that and also recognize that there are some bad apples and some people in powerful places who protect them.
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Re: FBI Shoots Innocent Kidnapping Victim (Kidnappers Unharm

Postby random_nerd » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:03 pm

There's not much I can add that others haven't already said. This was a terrible thing that in a better world would never have happened, but there are a number of events that could have lead to it other than outright maliciousness or even incompetence on the officer's part. No system, no plan, no person is perfect, there will always be tragedies. The only thing we can do is determine if this was in fact a tragedy and not willful malice/negligence on the officer's part. And then either way all we can do is take appropriate disciplinary action, learn our lessons, try to make things as right as we can for the victims, and try to make sure it never happens again.

Of course, if tomorrow undeniable proof came out that the officer dragged the victim out into the street after apprehending the suspects and shot him execution style for fun while kicking a box full of puppies and kittens, I will be the first to say fuck that guy. Same thing if his malice and or incompetence isn't quite so hyperbolic.
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