Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby SandTea » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:42 am

Is it just because of the internet? Sometimes I really dislike how things happen on the internet. I was trying to be polite. I'll go away though and leave behind Samantha Bees' bit about it in my place.

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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Crimson847 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 am

SandTea wrote:Grimstone, I want you to understand that I didn't claim this was rape. Sort of like how "grace" and most others were also not saying it was rape.


"Grace" did claim it was sexual assault.

Grace says her friends helped her grapple with the aftermath of her night with Ansari. “It took a really long time for me to validate this as sexual assault,” she told us. “I was debating if this was an awkward sexual experience or sexual assault. And that’s why I confronted so many of my friends and listened to what they had to say, because I wanted validation that it was actually bad.”
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:53 am

SandTea wrote:Is it just because of the internet? Sometimes I really dislike how things happen on the internet. I was trying to be polite. I'll go away though and leave behind Samantha Bees' bit about it in my place.


Once again, the claim isn't simply that he was a jerk but that(from the babe article) he committed sexual assault and on here that he committed rape(which I'm calling bs on).
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Crimson847 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:07 am

Kyle Smith of National Review summed up my view of the issue succinctly:

To some extent, the two sides in the Ansari debate are talking past each other...The two sides in the debate line up roughly as follows: Ansari’s defenders point out that he didn’t commit a crime. Grace’s defenders say he behaved horribly. Both sides are right.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby cmsellers » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:14 am

Crimson847 wrote:Kyle Smith of National Review summed up my view of the issue succinctly:

To some extent, the two sides in the Ansari debate are talking past each other...The two sides in the debate line up roughly as follows: Ansari’s defenders point out that he didn’t commit a crime. Grace’s defenders say he behaved horribly. Both sides are right.

I don't think this is true. I'm claiming that he probably did commit a crime if Grace's muddled account is exactly accurate, which it probably isn't. He probably didn't actually commit a crime and it's entirely possible that the worst thing he's guilty of is a little bit of cluelessness.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Kate » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:13 am

Grimstone wrote:
Kate wrote:It is fairly presumptuous to assume that people who are annoyed by your stance don't have any experience with violent sexual assault themselves, whether in their own lives or because someone they love has experienced it. Given the statistics, it is unfortunately safe to assume that you are not alone in this. I am sorry you have this burden to carry and that people you love were hurt.


The point is I am aware of what rape is, and being handsy/asking more than once it is not.

No, but pressuring someone and wearing them down is well on its way into that territory and you're acting like there is nothing at all wrong with it. I'm not ready to defend someone as being entirely in the right for getting near raping someone, just because it isn't technically rape. And I certainly maintain that continuing to try to finger someone after she has said no and put her clothes back on and has made no indication that she wants to continue anything sexual at all could certainly be argued to be sexual assault. You might believe that if someone says no, you need them to spell out exactly what that no covers.

Most people understand that if someone says no, that means no, and not "no to this one specific thing I've already said no to earlier." I should hope that most people would hear "no" and then make sure they understand what their partner means before continuing. And I don't just mean paying lip service to understanding and then kissing them so that they can't actually respond when they're clearly upset.

By saying that the only thing that counts as rape is rape that is the result of physical assault or overt threats, you are discounting so many instances of genuine sexual assault and downplaying just how hurtful this behavior can be even when it's not rape. Whatever you think of this account itself, the generalizations you are making go beyond annoying to me. They are downright offensive. You are welcome to them, but if you genuinely believe it is okay to treat people this way and people have no responsibility not to, again...we are at an impasse. If this is hookup culture, then conservatives and super religious folks are right and premarital sex is something we shouldn't condone as a society, because it apparently is inherently damaging and degrading. Acceptance of this kind of thing is a huge problem in our culture. I just don't actually believe this is what hookup culture has to be.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:23 am

Kate wrote:By saying that the only thing that counts as rape is rape that is the result of physical assault or overt threats, you are discounting so many instances of genuine sexual assault and downplaying just how hurtful this behavior can be even when it's not rape.


There was no physical force, use of threats, she wasn't unconscious, she was fully cognizant of what was going on, she was an adult, there are so many reasons why this wasn't rape and me disagreeing with someone who claims that it was rape doesn't discount other instances of genuine sexual assault and shouldn't be offensive to anybody.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Kate » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:33 am

I have apparently not been clear enough, it is not just that you are disagreeing with someone about whether it was rape. I didn't ever claim it was rape, because I don't believe it is, so that would be a little ridiculous, and you still argued with me for a bit about why it was okay.

I will repeat myself.

No, but pressuring someone and wearing them down is well on its way into that territory and you're acting like there is nothing at all wrong with it.


You've made a few generalizations in this thread that I do find offensive. And it's certainly not because I've lived a charmed life, unaware of the brutal realities of the kind of violence one human can inflict on another. I feel your attitude is one that normalizes and excuses behavior that should not be normalized.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:51 am

Where did I say there was absolutely nothing wrong with his behavior? Where did I claim he was the perfect gentleman? Because I'm pretty sure nobody anywhere is making that argument. What I have been arguing(consistently, repeatedly, and specifically) has been about consent and taking issue with the people(cmsellers and co) claiming it was rape.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Kate » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:27 am

Grimstone wrote:Where did I say there was absolutely nothing wrong with his behavior? Where did I claim he was the perfect gentleman? Because I'm pretty sure nobody anywhere is making that argument. What I have been arguing(consistently, repeatedly, and specifically) has been about consent and taking issue with the people(cmsellers and co) claiming it was rape.

When you claim that a fully clothed woman who had just said "no" can be groped without it being a violation of her consent because earlier in the evening she had been making out and engaging in oral sex with someone, minimize the times she said "no" and "not tonight," repeatedly equate acquiescence with full consent, and repeatedly downplay the pressure that she described feeling, you certainly seem to be saying that there wasn't anything wrong with his behavior. I haven't seen you criticize this described behavior once, I have seen you do all of these things - and your assertions in these regards are, I believe, harmful and normalize something that is wrong. It may not be illegal. It may not be rape. That doesn't mean it's not a horrible thing to do to someone, and for some reason, you seem to be downplaying it in every post where you respond to it.

If you think his alleged behavior was wrong in any way, I've seen no indication of it; so far, you have only defended it. In defending it, you have said several things that I find problematic.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:56 am

Kate wrote:When you claim that a fully clothed woman who had just said "no" can be groped without it being a violation of her consent because earlier in the evening she had been making out and engaging in oral sex with someone, minimize the times she said "no" and "not tonight,"


Not what I claimed and you're taking her words out of context. She said "not tonight" and "no" to sex and they in fact never had sex. Also, it was before putting on their clothes that she claims the violation occured.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Tesseracts » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:57 am

Grimstone I am also appalled and offended by your posts on this subject. You clearly have no idea how many painful experiences you are belittling. I have struggled for days to think of a response but I can't put into words how infuriating it is to read this thread. I'm especially nauseated by your argument that anyone who thinks consent through coercion is bad is a fake feminist. Feminism does not exist so you can tell women they suck at having agency when you don't approve of their feelings.

Clearly a lot of people think it's normal for a date to abruptly become a hookup with obligatory sex, even if one of the parties is not interested. This should not be normal, what should be normal is respect and safety.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:02 am

Tesseracts wrote:I'm especially nauseated by your argument that anyone who thinks consent through coercion is bad is a fake feminist.


You either misread what I wrote or we must have very different definitions of the word coercion.

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Grimstone wrote:Anyone who thinks woman don't have the agency to say no or leave when asked more than once to have sex(and are not being threatened or physically forced) is not a feminist.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Tesseracts » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:12 am

Yeah, you're damn right we have different definitions of coercion.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:13 am

So what is your definition of coercion if it's not being threatened or forced to do something?
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Last edited by Grimstone on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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