Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Fun With Mr. Fudge » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:46 pm

Looking at the disagreements in this thread and elsewhere on the internet, it appears to me that:

(1) Grace and Ansari probably perceived their encounter very differently and read each other's actions through the lens of what they expected or wanted the other to think.

(2) The people disagreeing on whether Grace's account, if accurate, describes a sexual assault are reading the same words but not seeing the same actions. In a weird way, they feel like accidental symbols for Grace and Ansari.

If you believe Ansari "ignored clear non-verbal cues" as Grace put it and furthermore dismissed her verbal objections, then it makes sense for you to think he acted in an inexcusable way. But my impression is that the people "defending" Ansari's actions disagree about how things actually happened and what those things were. They seem to see Grace as having behaved like she enjoyed the situation for the most part while secretly hating it. In their minds, there weren't clear cues to ignore.

I think it's clear that part of this difference in perception results from a selective reading of Grace's claims. It's hard to interpret "I don't want to feel forced" as indicating something other than "Hey, I feel like you're trying to force me." But I also believe that the bulk of the disagreement stems from the fact that we as readers of the account likely resolve ambiguous descriptions by inserting our own beliefs and assumptions. To give an example, consider the exchange where Grace said she'd have sex on a second date. According to her, Ansari asked if another glass of wine counted as a second date and then poured her one. Kate saw that as predatory. Grimstone saw it as a joke. In one interpretation, he's a lecherous lout. In the other, he's a comedian whose joke didn't land. I think that makes a huge difference in how one imagines that specific interaction and what allegedly happened afterward.

Similarly, Ansari getting the Uber to take Grace home seems to influence how some people see the prior events. Ansari's "defenders" see it as an indication that he didn't mean to violate her and thus probably just "misread" the situation as consensual. By definition, that would make Grace's signals unclear, at least to Ansari. That's very different from him "ignoring" a signal, which is what Grace accused him of doing. To "ignore" suggests Ansari received and perceived clear signals of what Grace felt but disregarded them. If you're inclined to think Ansari ignored Grace's cues, then bringing up the fact that he didn't trap her in his apartment sounds like a disturbing (and weak) defense of his supposed prior actions. But I think that people are saying something different when they bring that up and picturing a much less upsetting situation.

I guess my point is, these disagreements aren't just about the nature of consent. As this thread has thoroughly demonstrated, they're about language. Maybe there are people who would excuse ambiguously predatory behavior in the absence of an explicit no. That wouldn't shock me because I have a partly Hobbesian view of humanity. But I nonetheless think and hope that the fundamental disagreement lies in the drastically different ways people are probably picturing Ansari and Grace's behaviors. The opposing sides may be reading and using many of the same words, but if I had to guess, I'd say they're seeing and describing altogether different scenarios.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Marcuse » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:26 pm

I think it's clear that part of this difference in perception results from a selective reading of Grace's claims. It's hard to interpret "I don't want to feel forced" as indicating something other than "Hey, I feel like you're trying to force me."


Personally, I don't think the account itself is accurate. I'm wary of the timing and manner in which this was publicised, and extremely concerned about subsequent comments from "Grace" (which I have linked in the thread before) that she published the Babe article because it upset her that Ansari won a Golden Globe. It indicates that her aim was not to report a crime or warn others of unacceptable behaviour, but to slander and denigrate Aziz at a time where he was supposed to be happy. The fact she waited several months after the incident until right at the time he won this (the two things are associated in a lot of media accounts about this) also suggests this. In addition, I'm concerned that the items which people are relying on in the account to prove that it's sexual assault/rape are fabricated by editors or by "Grace" (whether by malice or incomplete memory I don't know) and it's problematic to rely on the account to prove his actions when its entirely one-sided and anonymous. We have no way of testing any of "Grace"'s claims and I think that acting in the way she has would probably prejudice any trial they might have thought to bring.

So in a case where the alleged victim knowingly publicises details of her sexual assault, at a time when the subject is like career death cancer to celebrities, right when said celebrity has won an award, several months after the incident, by her own admission because that award pissed her off, to a little known feminist website, instead of calling the police or reporting the behaviour (as far as I know, despite the ridiculous media attention he's not been arrested yet) I think the account is unreliable and don't think we can prove anything from it.

The account as written is, for the record, textbook sexual assault in my opinion. If you say no and someone keeps going, not cool.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Fun With Mr. Fudge » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:06 pm

Marcuse wrote:Personally, I don't think the account itself is accurate. I'm wary of the timing and manner in which this was publicised, and extremely concerned about subsequent comments from "Grace" (which I have linked in the thread before) that she published the Babe article because it upset her that Ansari won a Golden Globe.


I sympathize with this perspective and had a somewhat similar thought. As I wrote in an earlier post:

In an earlier post I wrote:But it also occurs to me that Grace is recounting an event after she "realized" how it affected her and talked it over with many friends who helped her conclude that it was a sexual assault. That, along with anger over Ansari's award, may have drastically influenced how she now remembers and describes what happened. I partly get this impression after reading something that Marcuse also pointed out. Grace says in the article that she decided to speak out after seeing Ansari accept an award while wearing a Time's up pin


But the point of my most recent post was about how people are reacting, given the assumption that Grace's account of Aziz's actions (as opposed to his intentions) is accurate. Even with that premise in place, my impression is that disagreeing parties are still interpreting the article's descriptions quite differently in addition to arriving at different conclusions about what Ansari and/or Grace should have done differently. And if that's true, it would make sense for some people to see assault while others see a "bad date."
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:25 am

<removed bc off topic>
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Last edited by Grimstone on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby sunglasses » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:32 am

Again, I know I'd prefer the discussion of rape vs coercion to go to the rape discussion thread...
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:37 am

sunglasses wrote:Again, I know I'd prefer the discussion of rape vs coercion to go to the rape discussion thread...


Rape vs coercion? Rape involves coercion(the use of force or threats) or a partner unable to consent, what does rape vs coercion mean?
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:54 am

Grimstone wrote:
sunglasses wrote:Again, I know I'd prefer the discussion of rape vs coercion to go to the rape discussion thread...


Rape vs coercion? Rape involves coercion(the use of force or threats) or a partner unable to consent, what does rape vs coercion mean?


A question that would probably be better asked in the Rape discussion thread.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:56 am

Cpt._Funkotron wrote:A question that would probably be better asked in the Rape discussion thread.


Done (so are we banning the word coercion from this thread now?)
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby sunglasses » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:00 am

Not banned, I would just really appreciate the discussion to go to said thread, please.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:50 pm

After taking a step back and rereading this thread I realize I owe everyone an apology. The tone and language I used was inappropriate given the sensitivity of the subject(and inappropriate for CAaSS in general) and I see now how it could have been taken as some kind of endorsement for the sort of behavior described in the article. I also completely ignored many valid points and questions brought up in response to my posts. At the time I was so caught up in my own disbelief and so upset by cmseller's claim that I couldn't focus on or even consider anything else. I do not believe it's okay for someone to be overly aggressive and pressure others into doing things they're reluctant to do and I regret not making this clear sooner despite being given plenty of opportunities to do just that.
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