Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Kate » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:22 am

IamNotCreepy wrote:One thing that I think gets lost in this is that they had been drinking, and I am sure that it's more difficult to pick up on the the non-verbal cues or parate the mixed signals while intoxicated. I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, but I think that added context is needed.

People who have been drinking maybe more likely to be pushy to initiate sex and not have the presence of mind to consider that they are making the other person uncomfortable -- especially if they are going into the situation under the assumption that this is going to be a hook-up.

When she leaves the door open for more sexual activity in some unspecified time in the future, someone might think, "Okay, it's been 15 minutes, maybe she more in the mood for it now."

I think this is definitely a case of differing assumptions, misread signals, and poor communication.

Out of all the articles I've read on this, I think this one comes closest to my thoughts on the matter.

I agree with that, and that this is the closest article to my thoughts on things. Except, of course, again. As with most articles, the fact that he kept doing the same things after she explicitly said no is glossed over or ignored.

Grimstone wrote:She consented multiple times to oral/making out/etc. she only said no to penetrative sex and they never had penetrative sex and when she told him she was done making out/oral things stopped and he called her a cab. There was no coercion, no threats, no forcing of anything.


I don't buy the argument that "no" only covers penetrative sex. Their clothes were back on. They were watching Seinfeld. She'd said no to sex. It wasn't the first time in the evening that she'd said no to sex. And I also don't buy the argument that not saying no is in the same category as active consent. That doesn't make it rape. I'm just not about to put it in the same category as "yes."

sidenote:
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Another thing bugging me about all this is that the conversation keeps going back to hookup culture. What if you don't want to be part of hookup culture and you just want to go on a date with someone? I feel like it's backwards that the assumption is that you'll have sex on a date, not the other way around. I feel like we're boxed in to either be nuns or we have to be up for anything. Why can't there be an in-between? Why can't someone say "Next time" and have that be respected without everyone saying that's not good enough? This is kind of a side rant. But it bugs me.


Someone can come across as predatory without ever issuing a threat. Whenever she expressed discomfort, he said something to placate her and kept saying "let's just chill." To most people, chill does not mean oral sex. He acknowledged she was uncomfortable, and then kept pressing. She said, verbally, that she didn't want to have sex, and he kept pressing. I'm not denying that he got mixed signals. I'm saying that is irrelevant; the response to mixed signals is not to shove your dick in someone's face, or try to finger them after they have said "no." And calling a cab for them, eventually, when they stand up to go do it themselves, does not negate that. He is absolutely a hypocrite if he behaves this way and then stands up and claims to be an advocate for women. And I think it's just fine to call him out on that. Instead of using his platform to try and do some good in the arena of mixed signals and affirmative consent, he misrepresented what she said to him and shifted responsibility. You can acknowledge mixed signals and still say, "but my response to mixed signals should have been to make sure I was understanding her."
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:30 am

He ASKED her to perform oral sex on him. She did.


"He motioned for me to go down on him. And I did."


Yeah, she said slow down to him going to fetch a condom. He didn't fetch that condom and slowed down back to what they were doing. She said let's chill and he asked her to perform oral on him, she did of her own free will. They went to go chill for a second time, he motioned for her to perform oral on him and again she did of her own free will. He took her to the room with the mirror for penetrative sex which she declined and instead they agreed to go back and chill for a third time.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Kate » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:56 am

Grimstone wrote:
He ASKED her to perform oral sex on him. She did.


"He motioned for me to go down on him. And I did."


Yeah, she said slow down to him going to fetch a condom. He didn't fetch that condom and slowed down back to what they were doing. She said let's chill and he asked her to perform oral on him, she did of her own free will. They went to go chill for a second time, he motioned for her to perform oral on him and again she did of her own free will. He took her to the room with the mirror for penetrative sex which she declined and instead they agreed to go back and chill for a third time.

And none of that makes it okay to keep going after she said no.

That intelligent people are arguing that it does is exactly why it is frustrating that he handled the aftermath the way he did. If your takeaway from this is that he did nothing wrong and the responsibility was entirely on her even if things played out exactly the way she described, we're probably at an impasse. If I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:01 am

She said no to penetrative sex specifically(multiple times) and consented to other acts(multiple times). Also, "chill" in this context has consistently meant something along the lines of making-out which she seemed fine with(until she didn't at which point he stopped).
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby cmsellers » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:10 am

Grimstone wrote:She said no to penetrative sex specifically(multiple times) and consented to other acts(multiple times). Also, "chill" in this context has consistently meant something along the lines of making-out which she seemed fine with(until she didn't at which point he stopped).

She acquiesced to other acts multiple times, which isn't quite the same thing.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:13 am

cmsellers wrote:She acquiesced to other acts multiple times, which isn't quite the same thing.


No, by her own admission he asked her to perform oral on him and she did willingly(multiple times). That makes her an active participant and not a passive recipient.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby cmsellers » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:19 am

Grimstone wrote:No, by her own admission he asked her to perform oral on him and she did willingly(multiple times). That makes her an active participant and not a passive recipient.

By her telling, she didn't want to do those things but felt pressured to. However this gets us into the question in the other thread: how easy is it for women to say "no."
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:22 am

She didn't say no to making out with him, she didn't say no to receiving or giving oral, what she said no to was specific and she wasn't afraid to say no to it.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Krashlia » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:53 am

The entire case is screwing with my head, because I encountered it from the Atlantic first. Defending a celebrity. A dangerous game to play, but I don't know why I was almost persuaded this time.

Though I suspect Babe.net is massive click-bait, at least they give us a play-by-play.

And I could see where the attitudes and questions of the Atlantic article, and those thinking along those lines, come into view. If she wasn't intending to have sex, why did she stay at his place?...

No, bad question. Its entirely possible that it was simply thought of, by at least one party, as an okay location to pass the time and get to know each other, as opposed to an invitation to sex.
Can we reliably say that this is what she was looking for? Because if she was, we could more easily say that she's just complaining about a bad date (That is, an evaluation made of the entire date after the fact of the event).

Anzari, however, made that intention known through his actions, causing her to become alarmed. And again, I feel tempted to ask why she didn't put a halt to this and leaving? But, I may as well also ask, literally "What did she expect?" For Anzari to respect some previously expressed wishes. Which I guess she wanted to be a rather long term state of affairs, as opposed to something postponed?
Why didn't she refuse it when he was performing oral sex on her? After all, she did refuse a previous act. Except, she didn't seem to refuse a previous act, just ask for what appeared to be a delay. Which leads us back to the oral sex part.

Even though she may not have come for sex, the moment she realized any differences in intentions and goals for the night, one would think she'd have lost interest and requested leave or left. After all, it's already a "date gone wrong" (an evaluation made of a date in progress). Am I trying to blame the victim? Did Anzari actually prevent her from leaving? Truly do something to make her override any sense otherwise that it was in her best interests to simply leave, or make her incapable of leaving -EDIT-in: [Earlier]-?

It's the ambiguity of the thing, and the entire moment is colored by the potential sex.
We don't even know what she wanted out of the night, or what he did that made her delay decision making to leave his residence or unambiguously refuse him -EDIT-in: [Which she did at the end]-.


What I'm getting from it so far is that, if its not a case of Anzari being a rapist or criminal, its definitely a case of the man being a boor.

Kate wrote:You also don't need to be a mind reader to understand, "I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you." His response to that was to briefly acknowledge it's only fun if they're both having fun, then have her sit on the floor in front of him, then surprise her with his dick and tell her to suck it. And after she did, he issued the totally-not-rapey-sounding, "You don't look like you hate me."


How did I forget this part?

Why am I expecting the woman to take greater control of the situation, in a situation that she's implying telling us was a violation of her person by another?

Why didn't Anzari take all these delays to be a warning? Why was her being at his house taken by him to mean that he could have sex with her, such that he was trying to make her do it? and why did I even think that? Jesus, I'm supposed to be the "no sex before marriage" guy. So why am I trying to side with the guy whose apparently over eager to slide his penis into a woman just because she went as far as going into his house with him, as if that actually meant she was actually ready?
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:43 am

Yeah, he should have realized a lot sooner she wasn't that interested in him after the first hour or so of hanging around naked and making out/performing oral on each other.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby SandTea » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:13 am

Kate wrote:As much conversation as there is about how it infantalizes women to act like they have no agency in such a situation, how disrespectful is it to men to ignore that they can use their words too? That they also have a responsibility in a sexual situation to not act like animals and instead listen to their partners and make a positive effort to make sure they are comfortable?


I want to second this part. It is oft ignored that stereotypes about men and women are both damaging to our ability to interact and should be addressed simultaneously.

I think my confusion about this story comes from not understanding how some folk either ignore or don't pick up on the 'vibe'. I get that it's hard to be a "mind reader" but just hearing "I'm uncomfortable with this" should be enough. Asking me for something should only take once. If you ask me multiple times, you're being an asshole. Especially if I didn't say yes the previous times,

I'm pretty sure and hopeful that no one here has done something someone might call sexual assault so it seems like even all us socially maladjusted people can negotiate our way around a possible sexual encounter without the need for news outlets to discuss our possible compromising of consent. With that in mind, think about how you would have acted in that scenario. Would you have acted as he did? If not, why? If it's just a personality issue? Do you consider that a bad thing? That exercise has helped me so I hope it might help others.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:43 am

SandTea wrote:I think my confusion about this story comes from not understanding how some folk either ignore or don't pick up on the 'vibe'. I get that it's hard to be a "mind reader" but just hearing "I'm uncomfortable with this" should be enough. Asking me for something should only take once. If you ask me multiple times, you're being an asshole. Especially if I didn't say yes the previous times,


Except she never actually told him "I'm uncomfortable with this" she told him to slow down when he went for the condom and resumed making out/doing oral with him. Later when he asked about intercourse again she told him "next time" to which he replied "Oh, you mean second date?" and jokingly asked if having another drink with her would count. At this point she excuses herself for a minute and when she returns expresses how she "doesn't want to feel forced" into doing anything with him and so they go to the couch and.. she goes back to making out/giving him oral. It's not until she goes with him to the room with the large mirror that she tells him no she's not going to have intercourse with him and it's at this point she claims to have felt violated.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Aquila89 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am

But everybody is operating under the assumption that the events occurred exactly the way she describes them. Do we know that? We don't know that. Even if she strives to be accurate, memory is a tricky thing. It's subjective.

Kate wrote:My husband pointed out that notably, his non-apology did not deny that any of the actual events she described occurred.


I disagree. He doesn't explicitly come out and deny it, but implicitly he does - because he said this:

We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.

The next day, I got a text from her saying that although ‘it may have seemed okay,’ upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned.


If the events occurred the way she described them, this cannot be true, because Ansari had to be aware then and there that she felt uncomfortable. Because she said so then, because she ended up saying: "you guys are all the fucking same".
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:01 am

phpBB [video]
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Marcuse » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:25 pm

"Grace" via CNN wrote:When Ansari won a Golden Globe Award for his Netflix series "Master of None" earlier this month, the woman said she felt compelled to share her experience.

"It was actually painful to watch him win and accept an award," she said. "And absolutely cringeworthy that he was wearing the Time's Up pin. I think that started a new fire, and it kind of made it more real."


:|

This does somewhat lend credence to my theory that the intention of the Babe article was more about discrediting Aziz than it was about reporting a crime. Apparently the incident happened in September, so I can only assume she sat on this until he won a Golden Globe then decided to release it right then.
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