Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

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Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby cmsellers » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:10 am

So this article came out the other day, in which a pseudonymous fan who went on a date with him accuses him of sexually assaulting her. I know that we have this thread, but it seems to be focused on the broader implications of one question that the story raises. So I'm making this thread on the Ansari accusations themselves, since it doesn't seem like this story is going away anytime soon.

Given that this is one account by an pseudonymous source, I'm withholding judgment on whether it's completely true, the fabrications of a spurned lover, or somewhere in between. And the truth is almost certainly that her account of facts differs at least somewhat from the actual facts, human memory, especially in emotionally charged circumstances, is incredibly fallible.

Still, if two claims from the story are true than I'd be comfortable calling this not just sexual assault but rape. Those two claims are that whenever she tried to move away from him he kissed her again, and that she told him she was uncomfortable, he agreed to take things slow, and then he presented her with his dick to suck. We argued over whether this account describes rape, sexual assault, or a bad sexual encounter quite a lot yesterday, and I stand by it describing rape.

However it's entirely possible that things happened differently enough from the way she described them that Ansari didn't even commit sexual assault. And that's where another article comes in. This article, in the Atlantic. I take away three broad points from the article, each of which has some merit.

  1. People have been too quick to cast judgment on Ansari. I agree with this completely. I still don't know that "Grace" isn't lying or misremembering things.
  2. "Grace's" account reads like she wanted to date Ansari and was pissed that he only wanted sex. Yes and this is a good reason for her to lie or misremember the facts. However I don't think it's unreasonable not to want to have sex on a first date, and I do think Ansari moved too fast if her account is true.
  3. "Grace" didn't do enough to resist Ansari's advances. I agree that women should be able and willing to say "no" directly rather than relying on subtle signals and indirect speech, however we don't live in a perfect world and many women (and men, for that matter) don't feel they can say "no" directly and without hedging.
Despite agreeing with what I feel are the main points, I feel that as a whole the article reads like an exercise in victim-blaming. The author is reading things into "Grace's" behavior from her own account which I don't see, and it seems to me like she's a little annoyed at how promiscuous Millennials these days are.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby JamishT » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:26 am

I have yet to read the article, and honestly, I don't really plan to. I can say that on Twitter, there seems to be a majority (even among feminists) that says that Aziz did not rape or assault Grace. There is a sentiment that body language and blow jobs do not constitute a denial of consent, and when "no" was said aloud, he did stop. Yes, many anti-feminists are latching on to this story as if it is indicative of a larger flaws in feminism, and then you have some feminists that are labeling this as like super rape or something. It has been interesting to to see many that usually butt heads agree that you don't get naked with and blow an guy and then scream rape. I have seen many say that this is hurtful to #metoo and #timesup, and actual victims in general.

I haven't gotten deep into this story (or even read the articles around it), because I don't have the energy to care. I suppose that I've also admired Aziz for years, and that plays into my reservation of judgement and automatic siding with him. But at the same time, I don't think I have the opportunity to have one night stands. I don't think I have any actual (well, metaphorical) dogs in this fight. I'm interested to see how a story so tenuous gets handled by people of all sides, but that's about it.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Irishjava » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:11 am

This one's tough, because what Aziz did doesn't fit neatly into a pre-established box. This isn't a boss or coworker making inappropriate comments, it's not Harvey Weinstein or Louis CK, and it's not (in my estimation) grotesque sexual assault. It's a guy being a pushy asshole on a date, acting drunk and sexually aggressive. There are few women who haven't been on a date like this, and similarly few men who have not impatiently goaded a partner (who they understood to be consenting) into doing something they don't want to.

I don't think Aziz should be ruined for this. I also don't think he should be excused. What was described is gross and inappropriate and REALLY common, and we should learn from this story: people are right to call him out on this, and he should apologize. I want to hear him say why he was wrong, what he would have done differently, and make it clear to everyone the lines he crossed. I want people to recognize that this was a fucked up thing to do, and to stop doing it themselves.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Kate » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:19 am

I think that if this happened the way she described it, it was sexual assault. It's not actually the case that she said no and he stopped; she said no and he temporarily stopped and then kissed her without permission, stuck his fingers down her throat again (which had previously been the prelude to fingering her without permission) and tried to get her pants off, again without permission. That is not my definition of stopping. There are people criticizing her for expecting him to be a mind reader, but you don't need to read minds to understand, "no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this."

You also don't need to be a mind reader to understand, "I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you." His response to that was to briefly acknowledge it's only fun if they're both having fun, then have her sit on the floor in front of him, then surprise her with his dick and tell her to suck it. And after she did, he issued the totally-not-rapey-sounding, "You don't look like you hate me."

I get how someone who is completely clueless can miss that one, especially since she did comply, but it is super aggressive no mater what and this guy has decided to publicly endorse the #MeToo movement. There is something very wrong about that, if this account is accurate.

People keep saying she needed to say no, but then ignoring that saying no changed nothing about how he acted. It's almost like he was a gamer trying to figure out the right combination of buttons to push to get his goal and trying again when one combo failed. Every time she tried to make it clear or even explicitly say she was uncomfortable, he tried something new with the same end goal of having sex with her.

That all said, I don't know if she ever actually went beyond non-verbal cues. It's very clear that his non-apology isn't accurate if the portion of her text on babe is legitimate, because his non-apology seemed to indicate that after further reflection she decided she didn't have fun. Her text to him was very clear that she was upset in the moment and that he had ignored her non-verbal cues.

My husband pointed out that notably, his non-apology did not deny that any of the actual events she described occurred. Even if she never gave verbal cues and he genuinely misread the situation, his behavior was super aggressive and the kind of thing that makes people (women and presumably men as well) uncomfortable. If you're going to be a voice for a movement of people who have been sexually assaulted, maybe don't do this sort of thing to women you barely know. At best, he is a massive hypocrite. At worst? He assaulted someone. And I don't think anyone can say which end of that spectrum he falls into. I don't think he deserves to be dragged through the mud, but I agree with Irishjava that I want him to address what was wrong with his behavior and why he should have made sure she was actually into it before plunging ahead. Consent to a date =/= consent to sex and that consent should not be assumed. Heck, consent to coming back to his apartment to hang out during a date does not mean that consent should be assumed.

I'm disturbed that this story has led to people I know saying that because she had oral sex with him, he didn't do anything wrong. This same guy also said that she shouldn't have gone to his apartment if she didn't want to have sex with him. That's disturbing. Some of the takeaways from people to justify his behavior really do seem backwards. And again...maybe it didn't go down as she described. I'm taking umbrage with people saying that even if her account is accurate, it wasn't a problem. And it was. I am disturbed that someone who is supposedly taking a stand against sexual assault is part of normalizing this kind of aggression.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Marcuse » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:36 pm

I think if the events of the story went down the way they're described then, totally that's not okay.

However I'm extremely suspicious of the account of the events. Firstly, it's anonymous and really that makes me inherently suspicious in the first place. Any time someone openly names their partner and refuses to name themselves in a public piece designed to do nothing but complain about their behaviour I get yellow alert sirens.

I can't see a reason why "Grace" would choose to give her story to a little-known feminist website instead of, you know, the police. Let's not forget that doing something like this would probably be prejudicial to any legal investigation of the events, given it's been widely disseminated and any potential jurors would be aware of it. When you sell your story first, it makes me suspicious.

The account definitely appears to have been edited. I don't want to say that for certain it's totes made up, because honestly I don't think a lot of it was. But when there's setup lines about not being able to choose the wine that stick out like a sore thumb it makes me suspicious. But the thing that makes me super suspicious is "the claw" that extremely strange thing Aziz apparently did to her multiple times where he stuck his hand down her throat like he's Mankind with socko. Maybe I'm being a prude but that seems like a bizarre and unpleasant thing to have done, and I have literally never heard or ever seen anyone doing something like that. That sticks out a lot to me.

The account also, as several female commentators have pointed out, gives "Grace" zero agency in the situation. We're supposed to assume that she's completely incapable of fending for herself, and cannot and will not do anything to stop this experience. I'm not so sure how much I buy into that criticism actually, because I think it's a by product of the piece being edited to be more convincing.

But of course, none of this matters because the real thing this will do is end his career. Whether it's true or not, and whether he did what "Grace" said or not, he's not going to work again. That result is what's making me wonder if this did go down as its described. You have a person who, anonymously, publishes a hit piece about a celebrity based on their account of a night that went wrong. Was this reported to the police? Did they authorise this publication and if so why did they? I saw in an article in the Atlantic that this was 3000 words of revenge porn and I'm having trouble shaking the impression that it might be.

ETA: I may also be wary of claims like this right because of the multiple cases of rape trials in the UK collapsing where the police have refused to release or have suppressed the evidence which gives the lie to the prosecution case generally revolving around supposed victims being intimate with or asking for sex with their supposed rapist.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby IamNotCreepy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:33 pm

As I said in the other thread, I feel unqualified to really speak about this because I am a man, and my sexual experience is limited to one monogamous relationship, so it's hard for me to wrap my head around the subtleties of consent and one-night stands.

I see both sides of this. I agree with Marcuse that the circumstances around this seem shady, and I see the merit of the argument of how it takes agency away from women to assume they can't say no if they don't want to do something.

On the other hand, I can see how my limited point of view does not allow me to appreciate what goes through a woman's mind in that situation.

Overall, I'm just really disappointed. At best, as previously said, this makes him a massive hypocrite. I loved how Master of None handled tricky issues about gender equality and sexual harassment, and it was interesting to see someone my age who seemed to "get it" and understand the "millennial" experience.

Now he's lost all credibility to talk on any kind of social issue.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Cobra-D » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:50 pm

Marcuse wrote:However I'm extremely suspicious of the account of the events. Firstly, it's anonymous and really that makes me inherently suspicious in the first place. Any time someone openly names their partner and refuses to name themselves in a public piece designed to do nothing but complain about their behaviour I get yellow alert sirens.


I'm assuming she decided to go anonymous is because she didn't want to have to deal with people being asshole to her in real life. Beside in the grand scheme of things does it really matter if the statement is anonymous or not? Exactly what does it change if she wasn't anonymous, it's still a statement from a person about an event that isn't really being challenged by the accused. The only thing that changes is how much more harassment they would receive.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Absentia » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:07 pm

If the account is true, I would say that Ansari behaved inappropriately and made a woman feel justifiably uncomfortable. But while it might be considered sexual assault in the strictest sense, based on the circumstances I'm not sure he deserves the kind of outrage this is generating. I would say that he made his intentions pretty clear as soon as they entered his apartment, and "Grace" responded in an ambiguous way that a tipsy, horny guy could have reasonably misinterpreted. If I were a woman I wouldn't want to date him but it shouldn't be the end of his career.

Also, "Grace"? They may as well have gone all the way and called her "Chastity".
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Kate » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:50 pm

I think part of my frustration is that from where I am, I don't see a lot of outrage over it. Instead, I'm seeing a lot of things that have made it so I can no longer ignore that yeah...maybe there's something to this rape culture idea.

It's the responses to this that are getting me so worked up.

There are a lot of people who I know believe that victim-blaming is wrong and a problem who are responding by saying things like, she shouldn't have gone to his apartment. Well, she let him take her clothes off, what did she think was going to happen? She should have known when they left the restaurant early that he wanted to have sex. She shouldn't have had oral sex with him if she didn't want to keep going. She should have slapped him or pushed him. She should have, she should have, she should have.

He's someone who supposedly takes an active stance against this sort of thing, right? But this attitude is flourishing in defense of him and meanwhile he responded by downplaying what she actually said to him (again, assuming this is accurate and the text message they published was real).

I respect Louis CK a lot for coming out and saying, "Here's why I thought what I did was okay, and here's how I realize now it wasn't okay. I'm sorry."

Aziz Ansari wants to be an advocate for victims of sexual assault? Okay, then please acknowledge that when a woman says no, you should stop (and pausing doesn't count as stopping). That your fans are wrong when they say that a woman is basically consenting to sex if she goes back to your apartment with you. That when a woman says she's uncomfortable and feels pressured, the appropriate response is not to stick your dick in her face. Yeah, you can absolutely say you got mixed signals, but unless you're going to deny that these things happened (which he hasn't) then address them in a way that doesn't encourage shifting the blame.

Maybe these responses shouldn't have blindsided me. I've known for years that people dismiss women who feel wronged if the woman wore the wrong thing or drank wine or went to the wrong place or didn't physically fight back. But I didn't expect it from feminists.

Erm....the fingers down the throat before fingering is a thing. Don't ask me how I know. Someone pour me a drink (also agree that the wine thing was a bizarre addition, but it makes me feel less like that was a purposeful edit - I take it as a bad sign when a guy orders my food for me without asking what I want. For some reason guys think this is sexy and it's just like, I'm my own person, want to get my opinion on what I like before doing that?
FORESHADOWING. But any editor worth their salt would recognize that detracts from things and doesn't add to it for most people).

I don't agree that she had no agency either and don't even think she's portrayed as having no agency; the harassment stopped when she left (according to her). She did physically leave the building to stop it after she realized that her "no" wasn't enough, even for a self-proclaimed feminist. As far as I can tell, she's not outright accusing him of rape as much as being a hypocritical asshole and contributing to a culture where women are pressured into sex that they don't want, after he appeared publicly on tv sporting a pin that indicated he supports victims and respects women. That'd make me pretty angry too if this account is accurate. I know that's a big if and again, I have no idea how true it is and suspect she is at the very least remembering her verbal cues as being stronger than they actually were. It'd be like your high school bully giving a speech about how awful bullying is without acknowledging that he was a bully.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:03 pm

In defense of the wine thing, they were having oysters. You don't drink red wine with oysters. That's like, treason or something.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Marcuse » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:01 pm

Kate wrote:It's the responses to this that are getting me so worked up.

There are a lot of people who I know believe that victim-blaming is wrong and a problem who are responding by saying things like, she shouldn't have gone to his apartment. Well, she let him take her clothes off, what did she think was going to happen? She should have known when they left the restaurant early that he wanted to have sex. She shouldn't have had oral sex with him if she didn't want to keep going. She should have slapped him or pushed him. She should have, she should have, she should have.


Oh man now here I'm right with you. This incident, if it happened the way it is described, is by no means okay and there's no way you should hear "no I'm not ready for this" and try again unless you're told "okay I think I actually am ready now" or something to that effect.

I read the article in the Atlantic, and honestly I was shocked by how it portrayed "Grace" in its summary. I actually had to check that it was written by a woman, because it read like the kind of red pill bullshit I've encountered. Instead of questioning the inconsistencies of the account or saying it may not be true and we should reserve judgement, they went right for character assassinating someone they don't even know because the account seems to have hit the zeitgeist where we're prepared to let a dude off sexual assault because he's "just bad at sex" or "Grace" was upset he didn't want to be her famous boyfriend. They even criticised her for tacitly ditching her date on the night she met him, which is petty as fuck and has no bearing on whether he sexually assaulted her.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:19 am

“He said something along the lines of, ‘How about you hop up and take a seat?’” Within moments, he was kissing her. “In a second, his hand was on my breast.” Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated.

When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did.


She might have said something like "whoa, let's relax for a sec, let's chill" but then she also lets him make out with her, perform oral sex on her, and reciprocated oral sex on him all consensually. How could he possibly misread this situation?

Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. such as: "my hand stopped moving at some points,” and “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”


So at some points during these multiple make out/oral sex sessions she would periodically stop or move away but then keep going?

Ansari wanted to have sex. She said she remembers him asking again and again while she was still seated on the countertop. She says she found the question tough to answer because she says she didn’t want to fuck him at all.


But she never actually tells him that and since they've been making out/doing oral in the nude for a while now he probably took that as a bigger cue to keep going more than anything else.

“I wasn’t really even thinking of that, I didn’t want to be engaged in that with him. But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’” He then poured her a glass and handed it to her. She excused herself to the bathroom soon after.


She "didn't want to be engaged in that with him" yet tells him "next time" and "oh, yeah, sure"

Grace says she spent around five minutes in the bathroom, collecting herself in the mirror and splashing herself with water. Then she went back to Ansari. He asked her if she was okay. “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said.

She told babe that at first, she was happy with how he reacted. “He said, ‘Oh, of course, it’s only fun if we’re both having fun.’ The response was technically very sweet and acknowledging the fact that I was very uncomfortable. Verbally, in that moment, he acknowledged that I needed to take it slow. Then he said, ‘Let’s just chill over here on the couch.’”

When she sat down on the floor next to Ansari, who sat on the couch, she thought he might rub her back, or play with her hair — something to calm her down. Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did.


These are some really mixed signals she's giving off.

Halfway into the encounter, he led her from the couch to a different part of his apartment. He said he had to show her something. Then he brought her to a large mirror.“I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn’t,” Grace said. “After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”


So she says no and they agree to go back to the couch and chill(chill this entire time has basically meant 'make out/oral').

They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. “I remember saying, ‘You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.’” Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, he met her with more kisses.


This seems to be the first time she expresses any clear disinterest which appears to confuse him a little.

After that last kiss, Grace stood up from the couch, moved back to the kitchen island where she left her phone, and said she would call herself a car. He hugged her and kissed her goodbye. When she pulled away, Ansari finally relented and insisted he’d call her the car.


He doesn't stop her from leaving, he calls her the car himself.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Kate » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:25 am

She might have said something like "whoa, let's relax for a sec, let's chill" but then she also lets him make out with her, perform oral sex on her, and reciprocated oral sex on him all consensually.


So wait, she said "let's relax, let's chill" and he ignored it. And the onus there is on her because she allowed him to ignore it?

I didn't even notice this part the first time through, apparently she used her verbal cues much earlier in the evening than I realized.

I get how this can be mixed signals, but as much as she is capable of using her words, so is he. It is a sleazy thing to ignore someone asking you to slow down.

But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’”


This is also super sleazy. And predatory. And is definitely pressure to have sex after she has expressed she doesn't want to do it now.

I wonder why someone dating a man who is a self-described feminist would be thrown off guard and unsure how to react when he starts heavily pressing her to have sex even when she has said she doesn't want it right now?

While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. “I remember saying, ‘You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.’” Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, he met her with more kisses.


Yes, chill up until this point had meant this. But keep in mind, this is after she very explicitly said no. And, frankly. The idea that because someone has harassed you they won't listen even after you say no undercuts the idea that we should give people the benefit of the doubt that they're receiving mixed signals.

It's not wrong to hope that when you explicitly say no, that will be respected. It's not wrong to have faith that not all men will keep pawing at you after you say you don't want it. Because not all men will. Because a lot of men will stop. Because many, and hopefully most, men would have stopped way back when she said she felt pressured, because that's the decent thing to do and men are not inherently indecent.

As much conversation as there is about how it infantalizes women to act like they have no agency in such a situation, how disrespectful is it to men to ignore that they can use their words too? That they also have a responsibility in a sexual situation to not act like animals and instead listen to their partners and make a positive effort to make sure they are comfortable?

This seems to be the first time she expresses any clear disinterest which appears to confuse him a little.


Where did he seem confused? The part where he asked her what she meant and then didn't let her answer? He doesn't seem to have been confused enough to actually listen to her before continuing his behavior.

He doesn't stop her from leaving, he calls her the car himself.

So he gets a medal for...not stopping her from leaving at the end after she's expressed several times that she doesn't want this and that she's upset by his behavior? Oh man. What a guy. He's a prince. That's how I hope my loved ones are treated. I always dreamed of having a date with someone who pressured me into sex I didn't want, even after I said no, and then didn't stop me from leaving when I finally realized he wasn't going to stop.

I don't really see how it matters that he didn't stop her at this point. By this point, he had disregarded an explicit verbal "no."

When you are getting mixed signals, you should clarify the signals before trying to have sex. Always. Aziz Ansari had a perfect opportunity to respond to that and make that clear, but he chose not to. Until his non-response, I was relatively neutral on how I felt about him, especially given that I don't know how accurate this account is. But he lost a lot of my respect.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby Grimstone » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:32 am

Kate wrote:It is a sleazy thing to ignore someone asking you to slow down.


He didn't ignore it, at this point they had already been making out "let's slow down" was in response to him telling her he was going to go fetch a condom(which he didn't do upon request).

He ASKED her to perform oral sex on him. She did.


"He motioned for me to go down on him. And I did."



She consented multiple times to oral/making out/etc. she only said no to penetrative sex and they never had penetrative sex and when she told him she was done making out/oral things stopped and he called her a cab. There was no coercion, no threats, no forcing of anything.
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Last edited by Grimstone on Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Aziz Ansari Accused of Assaulting Anonymous Admirer

Postby IamNotCreepy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:48 am

One thing that I think gets lost in this is that they had been drinking, and I am sure that it's more difficult to pick up on the the non-verbal cues or parate the mixed signals while intoxicated. I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, but I think that added context is needed.

People who have been drinking maybe more likely to be pushy to initiate sex and not have the presence of mind to consider that they are making the other person uncomfortable -- especially if they are going into the situation under the assumption that this is going to be a hook-up.

When she leaves the door open for more sexual activity in some unspecified time in the future, someone might think, "Okay, it's been 15 minutes, maybe she more in the mood for it now."

I think this is definitely a case of differing assumptions, misread signals, and poor communication.

Out of all the articles I've read on this, I think this one comes closest to my thoughts on the matter.
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