Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby SandTea » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:18 pm

Again, ignorance is not an excuse. I don't expect police to be perfect but I do hold them to the same standards I hold myself to.

I am expected to not randomly murder folk. I hope for the same to be true of our protection force one day as well.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby sunglasses » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:24 pm

Re: ems standing by.

You cannot proceed until the scene has been declared safe. So after he was shot, they'd have to go thru the house, make sure no one else had guns, make sure everything wasn't soaked in gas like the caller had claimed, checked the guy they shot for weapons, then declare on the radio the scene was safe.

Then, the ems crew goes and grabs the guy, cuts his clothes to see the wound, apply pressure, get on stretcher, start iv and fluids, gets vitals, get on radio and find what hospitals are accepting patients- if the hospital is full and it does happen they go an er diversion and do not allow anyone in. And just because it says 8 minutes to get somewhere we don't know the traffic situation. The standard is to get trauma patients to the hospital in an hour (the golden hour). They got him there within 17 minutes. I don't really know if him getting their sooner would have mattered.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby PSTN » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:00 am

DamianaRaven wrote:Another thing that's been bothering me about this. The other participant in the online spat claims that he just "made up a fake address." Seems like it would be VERY unlikely for someone to just make up a random address off the cuff and have it turn out to be a legitimate address.


I'm not sure how things work in the states (I'm sure, as always, the answer is "it varies by state"), but where I live addresses are almost always completely numerical, with the only word-like variable being "street" or "avenue". It's not that difficult to make up a real fake address off the top of your head. In fact, I've had several deliveries go awry at my work because someone accidentally transposed two digits or confused "street" for "avenue". Just some food for thought.

Though this does bring up a few questions that I feel police should be asking themselves when dealing with these types of situations. Questions like "do we know we've got the correct address?", "Do we know there even is a situation here and we're not being manipulated?", "if there is a situation, do we know the details? Number of potential shooters, hostages, etc.?".

There's also the problem of the inherent stress involved in police interactions. On both sides. For as many people as I hear saying that confrontations are dangerous and stressful for the police, I hear almost nobody mention that those things are even more true for the other party. If it's anxiety inducing for someone not to know if the person you're dealing with has a gun, imagine what it's like when you do know that they have a gun. A gun that's unholstered, loaded, and pointed at you.

That's why I don't accept the excuse that a cop simply "panicked". They should be well trained enough to keep their shit together in dangerous and uncertain situations. There's always going to be some level of risk involved in police interactions, and I believe that that risk should primarily befall the party that volunteered to be there, that's definitely armed, that's probably wearing some type of body armor, and that will in all likelihood survive should things escalate. If cops are so panicked about how dangerous their jobs are, they need to go work at Target or something, a job that only kills you on the inside.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby DamianaRaven » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:23 am

I keep seeing the phrase "no way of knowing." I guess investigation is no longer considered a way of finding things out. It's more accurate to say that they didn't know, rather than suggest they had no way of finding out. Y'know who really had "no way of knowing" what was going on in that situation? The innocent man who got killed for nothing more than opening his own front door, that's who!
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby Crimson847 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:51 am

DamianaRaven wrote:
sunglasses wrote:And, look, I'm not the biggest "the cops are always right" person but with the information they had been given, that they had NO idea was false, they thought there was a dangerous hostage situation and were incredibly on edge.


Yeah, no need to bother finding out whether it's even true or not, just storm in and start shooting!



So you're saying it's wrong to rush to judgment before all the facts about a situation are known?
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby gisambards » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:58 am

DamianaRaven wrote:I keep seeing the phrase "no way of knowing." I guess investigation is no longer considered a way of finding things out.

This is, again, exactly what I'm talking about in terms of armchair criticism. This barely even means anything. What exactly should the police have "investigated"?

Y'know who really had "no way of knowing" what was going on in that situation? The innocent man who got killed for nothing more than opening his own front door, that's who!

Just because I'm not being overly emotional about it doesn't mean I'm ignoring that someone died. Personally I think it's actually much more insulting to these people who've lost their lives to make fictitious statements about the circumstances of their deaths and speculate wildly about the motives of those involved, and so you really don't have a high ground to be moralising those of us who are being a bit more rational about this from.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby SandTea » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:38 am

I'll gladly be called irrational if that means I'm the type who hopes those entrusted with protecting me don't squeeze their triggers every time someones hand twitches.

Let me go down the list here:
Armchair- Oh, is saying "maybe don't just put bullets into people" a thought only amateurs have?
Emotional- Overly? Now, that, is offensive.
Insulting- Fictitious statement being "guy was killed after opening his door"? Ya know what, you're right, I am feeling very insulted.
Rational- If it's wrong to not want this to have happened, I don't want to be right.

Goodnight and good luck. My horse is justifiably high. He's from Colorado though so it's legal.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby gisambards » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:01 am

If you're going to be so ridiculous, I'm not going to respond to you. Beyond your apparent total inability to engage with the debate that's actually happening, the suggestion that I wanted an innocent man to be killed because I refuse to indulge in rabid anti-police idiocy is simply sickening. Personally I think it's getting old very quickly to have CAaSS inundated with threads centred around anti-police sensationalism where users are going to be either insulted or accused of being "nasty" for disagreeing with the idea that police officers are inhuman monsters.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby iMURDAu » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:12 am

gisambards wrote:
DamianaRaven wrote:I keep seeing the phrase "no way of knowing." I guess investigation is no longer considered a way of finding things out.

This is, again, exactly what I'm talking about in terms of armchair criticism. This barely even means anything. What exactly should the police have "investigated"?


First off is it really okay to call comments on a sensitive subject "armchair criticism"? Do we all need to be qualified before speaking our minds? On a site called the comment section? Really.

Please check the link I posted earlier regarding the person shot in the face and chest with rubber bullets after his father and cousin told police there was no hostage situation and the suspect was asleep. Sometimes it doesn't matter if they're given first hand knowledge that no crime is being committed. They got a call and that was better than eyewitnesses. Is it overly emotional to think those cops shouldn't be trigger happy? They were going to take down a suspect with force and nothing was going to stop that.

I'm wondering how you can wonder what they should have investigated. They should have verified there was an active hostage situation. I mean, hurr durr. FLIR cameras are used to identify drug dens but not for hostage situations. Attempt to contact one of the alleged victims. Call the suspect on his cell. Send a robot to the door. Find out if the guy who stepped outside is armed before you shoot.

I just can't accept your idea that they had no way of knowing what was going on.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby Tesseracts » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:30 am

Uh I don't think it's exactly out there to criticize the cops for murdering an innocent man. Things like this happen quite frequently. The cops will get the wrong address and kill someone. The police are poorly trained, own too many weapons, are too aggressive, and never face consequences for their actions. This is a mistake both on a system wide level and an individual level.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby DamianaRaven » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:35 am

gisambards wrote:Personally I think it's getting old very quickly to have CAaSS inundated with threads centred around anti-police sensationalism where users are going to be either insulted or accused of being "nasty" for disagreeing with the idea that police officers are inhuman monsters.


I'd call that just a bit hyperbolic.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby Crimson847 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:06 am

I think cops are mostly good sorts. I think all cops make mistakes that are worthy of criticism, a number of cops make catastrophic mistakes that are worthy of serious punishment, and American law enforcement as an institution has several glaring and harmful flaws that demand reform. I firmly disagree with the idea that cops are inhuman monsters.

Anyone strongly opposed to that stance? If not, then it doesn't seem likely that merely criticizing cops or arguing that they're not inhuman monsters are the behaviors being objected to here.


Rather, gisambards' complaint seems to be that others are making unjustified assumptions and tarring the profession with a broad brush in the process of criticizing police actions, and SandTea's complaint seems to be that gisambards is insulting them in the process of arguing that cops aren't inhuman monsters. At least, that's how I'm reading it.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby SandTea » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:36 am

gisambards wrote:If you're going to be so ridiculous, I'm not going to respond to you. Beyond your apparent total inability to engage with the debate that's actually happening, the suggestion that I wanted an innocent man to be killed because I refuse to indulge in rabid anti-police idiocy is simply sickening.


I'm glad you don't want an innocent man murdered. You may be surprised by that but it is still a good thing. My "sickening" stance against senseless murderers might seem silly to you but to everyone else, who are reasonable people, it is a completely understandable position.

Personally I think it's getting old very quickly to have CAaSS inundated with threads centred around anti-police sensationalism where users are going to be either insulted or accused of being "nasty" for disagreeing with the idea that police officers are inhuman monsters.


Wouldn't it be nice, instead, to not have cops kill innocent people? But yeah, lets just yell some more about how it's totally OK to kill random people. If you want folk to not call people "nasty" I wold recommend said people to not be nasty.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby gisambards » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:18 pm

This is exactly what the sort of behaviour I'm criticising. Because I tried to give any sort of benefit of the doubt to the officers involved, this idiot continues to insist that I want random people to get murdered by the police. In a previous thread, because I tried to correct one of Damiana's exaggerated accounts of the events in question, I get accused of being petty and nasty.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticise the actions of the police in this and other instances, if it's being done reasonably. My definition of "reasonably" does not cover making shit up, holding police to a standard of infallibility, and certainly not having tantrums or insulting anyone who disagrees. This is CAaSS thread, so it needs to be open to debate. Right now, it clearly isn't. If Damiana were just genuinely posting examples of police brutality and encouraging actual debate about them, that would be fine. But instead all that's happening is that she's posting ridiculously sensationalist accounts of events (to the point of basically lying) and then she and other users are being extremely vicious to anyone who disagrees with that account. It's completely against the standards this forum is supposed to have.

User has been warned for this post in regards to rules violation: direct insult
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby iMURDAu » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:52 pm

I'm trying to talk about the topic but I'm easily dismissed as an armchair observer. I could sit here and type out all the memories I have of police and the negative would far outweigh the positive but why should I have to?

You can give benefit of the doubt and I can tell you why I don't.

I'm not other users, I don't claim to speak for them, I don't claim to hold similar values or views on all subjects. The worst thing I've done imo is say "hurr durr" because to me it's obvious that a startling claim made by an unidentified 911 caller should be slightly investigated by the police. Especially since our FBI estimates there are 400 cases of swatting each year.

But it seems I'm a part of rabid anti-police idiocy. Guess I need to come around to your way of thinking. Because to me it seems you're not interested in debating any of the points I've brought up regarding how they could have used technology to their advantage.
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