Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby Tesseracts » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:45 am

DamianaRaven wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:Perhaps she was referring to you making the argument into a personal attack by asking her if she would make excuses for nurses.


That's a pretty low standard for "personal attack." It was personal, yes - and deliberately so - because she's a nurse, but how is it an "attack" to wonder if she would be so accepting of another nurse killing somebody because they were "on edge and had no idea that much drug would kill a person"? I made it VERY clear (check the parentheses - the stuff inside them counts) that I think she would NOT, so it's perfectly appropriate for me to wonder why cops get a pass like that and a fellow nurse would NOT. Just because it's an uncomfortable question without an easy answer doesn't mean I'm attacking her.

That statement claims she is making excuses for cops, and also implies she holds cops to a lower standard than her own profession. These are assumptions which are not supported by the posts in the thread.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby Lindvaettr » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:48 am

Without touching whether or not any personal attacks have been made, I'll say that until we have more information, I don't place much, if any, blame on the specific officer involved. If he was so tense in that situation that he ended up shooting a guy as soon as he saw him, my first assumption is that he was not prepared or trained well enough to handle the stress of a hostage situation. That isn't his fault. If his training was lacking, his superiors should have trained him better. If he wasn't able to keep his cool under pressure well enough, his superiors should have been aware of that and not allowed him to be present. Without knowing more, the main issue here is not that the specific officer made a mistake, but that he was not given the proper training or the proper oversight and was put in a situation he was unable to handle.

Does that mean he's otherwise qualified to be a police officer? No. If he shoots that quickly, he probably isn't. But there's absolutely no reason that anyone with any authority over him should have put an officer of that (lack of) quality in that situation.

The same would go for a nurse in a situation he or she wasn't trained or prepared to deal with. I don't know what kind of training nurses get in nursing school (probably a lot more than cops do in the police academy), but if a particular nurse is not trained or mentally able to handle a severe burn victim, and that nurse does the wrong things when trying to treat the victim, the blame isn't on the nurse, but on the nurse's superiors for doing a bad job handling the situation from above.

Like most police violence issues (but perhaps more egregious and blatant, in this case), this seems to me (again, without further information) to probably be much more of a case of failure of the higher-ups in the department than it is a case of a single bad officer.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:59 pm

I liked when video games weren't about gambling your money away unless you got tickets that could be traded towards a prize.

FLIR cameras. They should be in every department. This is why they exist. See into the house. Hey look there's a bunch of living people just doing normal shit. Let's ring a phone inside or hit someone on their social media account to see if all is well and if they'll come outside to show as much. Or just tackle whoever answers the door. If they're unarmed they probably can't draw and fire before you can shoot on them (as in taking them to the ground) and hey you're armored up anyway.

But then again, he reached for his waistband.

Serious Protip: If the police are involved, let your pants fall all the way to the ground. A bit of embarrassment is something you can live through.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby Cobra-D » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:32 pm

So the guy was arrested. Also they released both the 911 call and the video of the shooting.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby IamNotCreepy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:57 pm

“Officers gave him several verbal commands to put his hands up and walk towards them. The male complied for a very short time and then put his hands back down to his waist. The officers continued to give him verbal commands to put his hands up, and he lowered them again.

“The male then turned towards the officers on the east side of the residence, lowered his hands to the waistband again, then suddenly pulled them back up towards those officers at the east.

“The officers on the north side of the street feared the male pulled a weapon from his waistband, retrieved a gun and was in the process of pointing it at the officers to the east. Fearing for those officers’ safety, the officer on the north side fired one round.”


This was a senseless tragedy, but you can see why shouldn't immediately jump to the worst assumption.

I'm not saying they couldn't have resolved the situation without violence, but picture painted of a rookie officer with an itchy trigger finger turns out to be inaccurate.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby DamianaRaven » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:06 pm

IamNotCreepy wrote:This was a senseless tragedy, but you can see why shouldn't immediately jump to the worst assumption.


The worst assumption? I assumed he was accidentally shot by a nervous rookie. What you're describing is MUCH WORSE, making it sound like he was deliberately executed for not winning their twisted little game of Simon Says.... but you're right. I shouldn't "assume the worst" about people when what they really did might well be worse than I can imagine.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:10 pm

Watched the video. Like Lindvaettr said how did they know there weren't other hostage takers? Oh that's right the 911 call that came from the trustworthy source of someone claiming to have killed his father and that person won't answer basic questions because he's more interested in making sure the address is correct and police are in fact responding.

Did they not consider this could also have been someone attempting suicide by cop?

Maybe try to figure out the motive of someone who calls and claims to have committed a serious crime but only cares about a police confrontation. Operator: "Are you white, black, hispanic?" Caller: "Is someone on their way? I might burn the house down." Who takes hostages but wants nothing in return and puts a timer on the response before everything goes up in flames? That doesn't make sense. That sounds exactly like someone with a death wish. And they were ready to grant that wish.

So the next time someone asks me why I don't play games online with randoms. I'm going to call in a stopdon'tsaythat refer to this story.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby DamianaRaven » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:19 pm

iMURDAu wrote:Maybe try to figure out the motive of someone who calls and claims to have committed a serious crime but only cares about a police confrontation. Operator: "Are you white, black, hispanic?" Caller: "Is someone on their way? I might burn the house down." Who takes hostages but wants nothing in return and puts a timer on the response before everything goes up in flames? That doesn't make sense. That sounds exactly like someone with a death wish. And they were ready to grant that wish.


It also sounds quite a bit like what it is - someone who's making shit up and very much wants the police to show up confused and in a hurry. Plus, why would someone who's just shot his own father and taken multiple hostages step outside with a gun in his waistband and follow their orders just long enough to give them a clean shot at him? I swear, you and I have farted better deductive reasoning than some of these "cops."

I really don't care if they were too a-skeert to think critically. I'm sick of that excuse - guys who can't stay cool under pressure DO NOT need to be sent out on sensitive missions like this and HERE is a perfect example of why. Unfortunately, being on the SWAT team is probably more lucrative than mere traffic patrol, so cops are incentivized to pretend they're up for it when really they're not.

EDIT: Oh, and it appears they let him lie there untreated while they dragged everyone out of the house and searched it:

“They can’t go in and treat somebody until the house is cleared and made safe,” he said. “An individual was shot at 6:47 and was at the hospital in about 17 minutes.”


I checked Google Maps. There are SEVERAL hospitals within 8 minutes of that address and the story says they had "medical rescue personnel" standing by, so it seems like they very deliberately decided "fuck this guy we just shot." Surely, they wouldn't have left him lying on the ground, potentially wounded and still armed so they either just left him there without checking to see if he could still whip out a gun and shoot people, or they KNEW he was unarmed and abandoned him on the ground anyway.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby gisambards » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:38 pm

DamianaRaven wrote:Plus, why would someone who's just shot his own father and taken multiple hostages step outside with a gun in his waistband and follow their orders just long enough to give them a clean shot at him? I swear, you and I have farted better deductive reasoning than some of these "cops."

Because someone who's just shot his own father and taken multiple hostages probably isn't thinking rationally. On top of that, being arrested (particularly in such a dramatic fashion) can be a very confusing experience for people and often puts them into a state of slight shock. In the real world, the fact that the guy wasn't acting like the bad guys you've seen on TV is not a tip-off that he's not actually the guy.
DamianaRaven wrote:I checked Google Maps. There are SEVERAL hospitals within 8 minutes of that address and the story says they had "medical rescue personnel" standing by, so it seems like they very deliberately decided "fuck this guy we just shot." Surely, they wouldn't have left him lying on the ground, potentially wounded and still armed so they either just left him there without checking to see if he could still whip out a gun and shoot people, or they KNEW he was unarmed and abandoned him on the ground anyway.

Or, like they said, they wanted to make sure the house was clear before letting medical personnel get too close.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby Lindvaettr » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:25 pm

IamNotCreepy wrote:
“Officers gave him several verbal commands to put his hands up and walk towards them. The male complied for a very short time and then put his hands back down to his waist. The officers continued to give him verbal commands to put his hands up, and he lowered them again.

“The male then turned towards the officers on the east side of the residence, lowered his hands to the waistband again, then suddenly pulled them back up towards those officers at the east.

“The officers on the north side of the street feared the male pulled a weapon from his waistband, retrieved a gun and was in the process of pointing it at the officers to the east. Fearing for those officers’ safety, the officer on the north side fired one round.”


This was a senseless tragedy, but you can see why shouldn't immediately jump to the worst assumption.

I'm not saying they couldn't have resolved the situation without violence, but picture painted of a rookie officer with an itchy trigger finger turns out to be inaccurate.


Assuming this is an accurate portrayal of what happened, it sounds like the officer may not have even made the wrong call. I don't read anything at all that sounds like a "twisted game of Simon Says", or anything even remotely close. Based on the information we now have, it sounds like the unfortunate victim didn't really cooperate with what seems like relatively simple command, "Put your hands above your head and walk forward".

I'm sure there's more complexity to this than the guy just choosing to ignore police orders, but that kind of thing happens a bizarre amount. Just to use this one as a potential (although not certain) case in point, I can't help but wonder why so many people seem to move their hands all over the place, and make sudden movements when police have guns pointed at them. It's completely inexplicable to me why anyone would make any kind of sudden movement when someone's aiming a gun at them.

As I said, that's not necessarily what happened here (although it sounds like it, from the information we have, but I could be wrong or that information could change), but all the same, it does happen, and I can't figure out why.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:07 pm

gisambards wrote:
DamianaRaven wrote:Plus, why would someone who's just shot his own father and taken multiple hostages step outside with a gun in his waistband and follow their orders just long enough to give them a clean shot at him? I swear, you and I have farted better deductive reasoning than some of these "cops."

Because someone who's just shot his own father and taken multiple hostages probably isn't thinking rationally. On top of that, being arrested (particularly in such a dramatic fashion) can be a very confusing experience for people and often puts them into a state of slight shock. In the real world, the fact that the guy wasn't acting like the bad guys you've seen on TV is not a tip-off that he's not actually the guy.


Problem is that in the real world there was no guy. Nobody shot their father and there were no hostages.

Why aren't the police trying to figure out how to avoid being easily manipulated? I mean if you can't reason with them what can you do? In the link is a story about how a swatting incident led to a man being shot with rubber bullets between the eyes after, ahem,
Officers reportedly ignored his father, Tom, and his cousin telling them there was no hostage situation and that the so-called hostage taker was actually asleep.


Swatting happens because it is incredibly effective.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby DamianaRaven » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:12 pm

I should hope this horrible tragedy will lead to new software for 911 dispatchers, stuff that can detect when a caller is "spoofing" them. If we have the technology to "spoof" a call, then it stands to reason that we have the technology to detect software like that. Let's get to using it!
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby SandTea » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:29 pm

Wow, I am actually surprised.
Note to self- never let my hands rest at waist level around tcs-ers.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:36 pm

Jazz hands or we shoot.
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Re: Police Instantly Kill Innocent Man Over Prank Call

Postby gisambards » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:05 pm

iMURDAu wrote:Problem is that in the real world there was no guy. Nobody shot their father and there were no hostages.

But the officers involved had no way of knowing that. The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of criticism of the actions of the officers here is armchair criticism that completely ignores the realities of policing and both the sort of situation the police were expecting and the situation that actually occurred.
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