Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Marcuse » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:05 am

Windy wrote:How dare this Nazi president recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, he should kick all the Jews out of their homes and give it to the Palestinians to show how much of a not-nazi he is


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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby DamianaRaven » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:15 am

I keep thinking of this song, for some reason. Probably just the mention of Jerusalem.



I'm confused about this subject. I don't really understand what business all this is of American leaders but hey, what do I know? *wanders off to listen to more music*
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Aquila89 » Mon May 14, 2018 3:31 pm

Well, the opening of the embassy was today, and Trump invited evangelical pastor Robert Jeffres to say a prayer. Jeffries believes that all Jews will go to Hell. (And Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Catholics, everyone who is not a fundamentalist Protestant, but that's less relevant here). He said in 2010:

“God sends good people to Hell. Not only do religions like Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism — not only do they lead people away from God, they lead people to an eternity of separation from God in Hell.”

Great choice for an embassy opening in Jerusalem!
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Cobra-D » Mon May 14, 2018 5:43 pm

About 59 Palestinians(so far) have died today during a protest against the embassy by Israeli forces.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby aviel » Mon May 14, 2018 7:34 pm

Cobra-D wrote:About 59 Palestinians(so far) have died today during a protest against the embassy by Israeli forces.

A little bit of context for this:

Protests and riots at the border with Gaza have been going on for a few weeks. Throughout the process, Hamas has attempted to use the riots as cover for terrorist activity, but the frequency of fatalities at the border has actually been decreasing as the protests have gone on.

Unfortunately, today is Nakba Day, when Palestinians mourn the creation of the state of Israel, and the Palestinian exodus that followed thereafter. Protest activity often spikes on Nakba day, and Hamas was planning to have Gazans attempt a mass breach of the border.

That obviously wasn't going to go well (although, to be honest, it didn't go quite as bad as I expected). Hamas has been attempting to use the border breach as a means of sending terrorists inside Israel, although it doesn't appear that they've managed to do that. They have also tried to maximize Palestinian casualties by lying to Gazans and telling them that the border had already been breached, and that they should therefore rush it immediately.

The issue is compounded by the fact that the new embassy in Jerusalem opened today. I have no idea why we decided to open the embassy on Nakba day. That seems like an incredibly obvious mistake. It inflames the riots, and makes the optics worse for both Israel and the US by giving Hamas a specific (and internationally unpopular) action they can point to as an excuse for the violence.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Crimson847 » Mon May 14, 2018 9:45 pm

aviel wrote:The issue is compounded by the fact that the new embassy in Jerusalem opened today. I have no idea why we decided to open the embassy on Nakba day. That seems like an incredibly obvious mistake. It inflames the riots, and makes the optics worse for both Israel and the US by giving Hamas a specific (and internationally unpopular) action they can point to as an excuse for the violence.


It does make the US and Israel look bad to other countries, but it also potentially helps rally support among their domestic populations, who will hear much more about the reactionary violence than about what provoked it. Also, it's arguable that neither Trump's America nor Netanyahu's Israel has much international credibility left to lose at this point, so they may think scraping the bottom of that barrel won't really change much.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby aviel » Mon May 14, 2018 10:03 pm

I'm skeptical that violence from Gaza tends to rally support from either population. I remember that, after Israel's last major operation in Gaza, Bibi's support had decreased in favor of Bayit HaYehudi.

If the idea was that the embassy should open on the day Israel declared independence then that would make some sense, except that Israelis don't celebrate that day on the Gregorian calendar. They use the Hebrew calendar, and Yom Ha'atzmaut was almost a month ago.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Windy » Tue May 15, 2018 4:29 pm

Crimson847 wrote:Also, it's arguable that neither Trump's America nor Netanyahu's Israel has much international credibility left to lose at this point, so they may think scraping the bottom of that barrel won't really change much.


Oh no how will we ever live with knowing that countries that keep leeching off of us and repeatedly relying on us to deal with problems on their own continent because for some reason they get buttfucked by fascism or communism or theocracy every few decades probably because for some reason they really trust their government so it never occurs to them that giving their government huge amounts of power is a bad idea whereas most of our country's founding laws were based on the principle that the government is corrupt and we need to limit its powers even though europe has been fucked harder by unchecked government power so you'd think they would learn while smugly insulting us and telling us how the strongest and most successful country in the world despite being one of the youngest should be run after royally fucking up their continent three times in the last century and begging us to save them because they have the memory span of a goldfish and take everything they have for granted and think this prosperity will last forever even though it's been less than half a century since we almost all nuked each other and are currently gunning for a fourth time and probably won't even exist within a century don't like us?
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Aquila89 » Tue May 15, 2018 6:17 pm

Marcuse wrote:
Spoiler: show
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Piter Lauchy » Tue May 15, 2018 9:55 pm

Windy's post is phrased in an inflammatory way, but the ranty nature of it makes me think that there are some real convictions in there, so I'll try to address them as such (sorry for being completely off-topic).

I don't think it's wise to look at the past, recent as it may be.* Yes, there is a lot of trust in the government (in Germany, at least). No one admits to being a fan of Merkel, but her party keeps being reelected. They must do something right. My guess is that it's stability. It doesn't feel like we're making a lot of progress, but that's the thing. Too much progress scares people. Not enough progress scares other people.
The CDU (Merkel's party) seem to have struck a pretty good balance.
I don't know enough about economics to comment the "leeching off" remark. I do, however, know that someone like Trump would never get any kind of power here. Not necessarily because of his political leaning, but because he's just a dumbass, simple as that. It's still incomprehensible to me how he was elected.
I get that, in the USA, that a) there's a good portion of people who just vote for their party, b) there was massive distrust towards Clinton and c) you guys effectively have only two parties, so it always is a choice of the lesser of two evils.

In conclusion, I see where you're coming from. I really do. But please understand that in the present Trump is nothing more than a joke over here. I love the USA and I yearn for the day when I'll be finally able to visit your country. It is full of interesting, smart and all around excellent people. Trump is not one of them.

*Side note: Americans seem to conveniently forget that they had established slavery when talking about past mistakes. Which, by the way, a political figure solved, and not the common rando with a gun.

ETA: This post is pretty ranty itself and doesn't really follow a coherent line of thought. I apologise for that. Just know that I love you guys and wish you could do better than freaking Donald Trump of all people.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Crimson847 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:03 pm

Windy wrote:
Crimson847 wrote:Also, it's arguable that neither Trump's America nor Netanyahu's Israel has much international credibility left to lose at this point, so they may think scraping the bottom of that barrel won't really change much.


Oh no how will we ever live with knowing that countries that keep leeching off of us and repeatedly relying on us to deal with problems on their own continent because for some reason they get buttfucked by fascism or communism or theocracy every few decades probably because for some reason they really trust their government so it never occurs to them that giving their government huge amounts of power is a bad idea whereas most of our country's founding laws were based on the principle that the government is corrupt and we need to limit its powers even though europe has been fucked harder by unchecked government power so you'd think they would learn while smugly insulting us and telling us how the strongest and most successful country in the world despite being one of the youngest should be run after royally fucking up their continent three times in the last century and begging us to save them because they have the memory span of a goldfish and take everything they have for granted and think this prosperity will last forever even though it's been less than half a century since we almost all nuked each other and are currently gunning for a fourth time and probably won't even exist within a century don't like us?


The US would continue to live just fine without our extensive alliances. We'd just be living as a great power with regional influence, rather than a global superpower with something close to worldwide hegemony. We'd be turning over substantial portions of the global economic system we paved the way for to other countries like China and Russia, but they might decline to use that control over international trade against us the way we did to them. In any case, the US doesn't need our alliances to live; without them we'd take an economic hit and our foreign policy efforts would get a lot more frustrating, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. Except, perhaps, for American exceptionalists.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Aquila89 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:13 pm

I think we should try to stay on topic. Whether the US needs international alliances is a whole new subject.

So, not only they had Jeffress say the opening prayer, but invited another fundamentalist maniac to give the closing benediction, John C. Hagee. Back in 2005, Hagee said that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for the sins of New Orleans, such as tolerating homosexuality. But that's less relevant here; what is more relevant that he once said that God allowed the Holocaust to happen "Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel."

Why these people? Couldn't they find a rabbi? Is this a sign that this move isn't really about Israel, but simply pandering to Christian Zionists?
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Crimson847 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:50 pm

Aquila89 wrote:I think we should try to stay on topic. Whether the US needs international alliances is a whole new subject.


Whether Israel or the US has anything to lose by pissing off the international community (and how much they have to lose if anything) directly impacts the wisdom and potential consequences of the embassy move, which is the subject of this thread. One can of course fairly object to Windy's accusatory argument style or his insults to Europeans, but the subject he's addressing is definitely relevant here.
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"If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them; but the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby SandTea » Wed May 16, 2018 1:23 am

Windy wrote:
Spoiler: show
Oh no how will we ever live with knowing that countries that keep leeching off of us and repeatedly relying on us to deal with problems on their own continent because for some reason they get buttfucked by fascism or communism or theocracy every few decades probably because for some reason they really trust their government so it never occurs to them that giving their government huge amounts of power is a bad idea whereas most of our country's founding laws were based on the principle that the government is corrupt and we need to limit its powers even though europe has been fucked harder by unchecked government power so you'd think they would learn while smugly insulting us and telling us how the strongest and most successful country in the world despite being one of the youngest should be run after royally fucking up their continent three times in the last century and begging us to save them because they have the memory span of a goldfish and take everything they have for granted and think this prosperity will last forever even though it's been less than half a century since we almost all nuked each other and are currently gunning for a fourth time and probably won't even exist within a century don't like us?


Congratulations! Your post must be pregnant. It is missing its periods. Bait is bait because it is delicious to seize.

I'm pretty sure protests would still happen even if the embassy wasn't moved. Hammas would have just used the same reason they've been using since forever. I don't have a dog in this fight other than it being weird to me that, over a few years it became much more popular to hate on Israel.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Windy » Wed May 16, 2018 5:38 am

Piter Lauchy wrote:I don't think it's wise to look at the past, recent as it may be.* Yes, there is a lot of trust in the government (in Germany, at least).


Short-sightedness is pretty much where about half of the problems with badly managed countries come from. Young people take their current standard of living for granted and think it can never collapse.

I don't think it's wise to look at the past, recent as it may be.* Yes, there is a lot of trust in the government (in Germany, at least). No one admits to being a fan of Merkel, but her party keeps being reelected. They must do something right. My guess is that it's stability. It doesn't feel like we're making a lot of progress, but that's the thing. Too much progress scares people. Not enough progress scares other people.

In conclusion, I see where you're coming from. I really do. But please understand that in the present Trump is nothing more than a joke over here. I love the USA and I yearn for the day when I'll be finally able to visit your country. It is full of interesting, smart and all around excellent people. Trump is not one of them.


Europe has a long history of poor political decisions and isn't the bastion of stability right now either and is becoming a police state again, they should probably worry more about themselves because the current trend they're in isn't sustainable.

Sandtea wrote:I'm pretty sure protests would still happen even if the embassy wasn't moved. Hammas would have just used the same reason they've been using since forever. I don't have a dog in this fight other than it being weird to me that, over a few years it became much more popular to hate on Israel.


Ideas are cheap and humans have short memories. They'll hop onto whatever idea is trendy right now.

By the way it's trendy to hate Israel right now because your overlords are trying to get the muslim vote.
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