Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

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Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby sunglasses » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:00 pm

So, for those of you who don't know, Trump decided to announce on Wednesday that he recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

"I've judged this course of action to be in the best interests of the United States of America and the pursuit of peace between Israel and the Palestinians," he said.
He said he was directing the US state department to begin preparations to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.


This has, predictably, led to some violence has Palestinians have protested the announcement.
At least 17 Palestinians have been wounded in clashes in the Gaza Strip and across the occupied West Bank, during protests against US President Donald Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.


If you're not sure why that's a big deal, please talk to Aviel. In fact, here's his post on the founding of Israel rife with historical context.

The Atlantic has a rather good piece (IMO) about why it's an issue, as well. Numerous foreign leaders warned against this move.

Foreign leaders from across the Arab world have been warning the Trump administration of the potential for violence. King Abdullah II of Jordan, which has custodianship of Christian and Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem, told U.S. lawmakers that the move could be exploited by terrorists to stoke anger in the region. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan threatened to cut diplomatic ties with Israel if the U.S. moves its embassy, and Saudi Arabia also condemned the plan. Saeb Erekat, the general secretary of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, said the move would “promote international anarchy and disrespect for global institutions and law.”
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Cpt._Funkotron » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:07 pm

Fucking Putz.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby KleinerKiller » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:58 pm

The more unpopular he gets and the more he's hemmed in by the investigations, the harder he tries to kickstart a major conflict that could make him more likely to be reelected if it expands into a full-scale war. I don't think he sees this as any different from firing the missiles at Syria or playing his little pissing contests with Kim Jong-Un, regardless of the very real and immediate damage this causes. I can't think of any other reason he would do this, because it's beyond inane and insane even by the Trump metric.

God fucking damn him.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Krashlia » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:07 pm

1937 - Palestine is divided into Jewish and Arab areas after the Peel Commission. Jerusalem and Bethlehem are kept by Britain for their annual Nativity play.


Lol.

Jews: This was the homeland of our ancestors, and the home of our Temple! There will be blood!

Palestinians: We have inhabited this holy place for a millenia, this is our home! We will bring the fire!

Britain: (lip quivers) B-but... Where are we gonna put the Christmas tree?
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby NathanLoiselle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm

That's Fucking Putz of the United States of America to you.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby sunglasses » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:54 pm

I have read some who speculate that some extremist Christians are happy for this move, as they feel it will signal the end of days and the rapture.

To which I just...have no real comment.

The ones who've been pushing for this are some evangelicals, most notably Christian Zionists.

Some have also spoken out against it.

Moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is simply provocative. And this is a part of the world where the peace process requires us to avoid provocation at all costs. There’s a reason why the world’s embassies have stayed out of Jerusalem. It’s not based on anti-Israel antagonism; it’s a pragmatic decision to support the peace process and to view Jerusalem as a shared city that respects everyone’s privileges.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Lindvaettr » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:41 pm

sunglasses wrote:I have read some who speculate that some extremist Christians are happy for this move, as they feel it will signal the end of days and the rapture.

To which I just...have no real comment.


It makes sense, if you think about it. After all, there's definitely been absolutely no conflict in that area since the time of Jesus. Why wouldn't this single time of violence signify the end times?
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Aquila89 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:25 pm

According to the Washington Post:

Some outside confidants, including billionaire Tom Barrack, urged Trump to hold off, worried that the move would deepen regional tensions caused by Saudi Arabia’s political shake-up and Iran’s growing reach.

“It’s insane. We’re all resistant,” said one Trump confidant who recently spoke to the president about it. “He doesn’t realize what all he could trigger by doing this.”

While Trump appeared to have made up his mind, he continued to solicit input, two White House officials said, even asking random acquaintances about the Middle East in recent months.

Several advisers said he did not seem to have a full understanding of the issue and instead appeared to be focused on “seeming pro-Israel,” in the words of one, and “making a deal,” in the words of another.


That sounds like him all right.

KleinerKiller wrote: I can't think of any other reason he would do this, because it's beyond inane and insane even by the Trump metric.


One reason is to please prominent Jewish donors, most notably Sheldon Adelson. (I've said it before, but it's beyond me how neo-Nazis can support Trump).

sunglasses wrote:I have read some who speculate that some extremist Christians are happy for this move, as they feel it will signal the end of days and the rapture.

To which I just...have no real comment.


The late Jack Chick, for instance espoused this view. According to one tract of his, the United States must unreservedly support every Israeli territorial claim, or God will strike it with natural disasters. Hurricane Katrina, Chick said, was God's punishment because the US "pressured Israel into" withdrawing from the Gaza strip. (Of course, while Christians must support Israel in everything, its Jewish inhabitants, like every Jew, will still all go to Hell for not accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and savior).
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby tinyrick » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:46 pm

sunglasses wrote:I have read some who speculate that some extremist Christians are happy for this move, as they feel it will signal the end of days and the rapture.

To which I just...have no real comment.
[/quote]

Well I do. Having grown up around these people, I can't even begin to tell you how much they disgust me. If you want a good idea of the mindset of Christian fundies, I ask that you watch "The Omega Code." In the movie, a charismatic leader solves all the world's problems, like ending hunger, and bringing peace to the Middle East through a two-state solution in Israel, then declares himself God, which causes the world to be split into two factions. The ones following the anti-Christ and the ones that don't.

Here's the problem I have with this movie, the fundies that produced it, and the whole end times fanaticism that allowed this movie to have an actual audience. Their version of the end times prophecy banks on the Antichrist being some beloved peacemaker that unites the world in a peace that lasts for 7 years, then decides to declare himself God. So what do they do when some great leader comes along and says, "Hey maybe we all should just get along" or "Maybe there's a diplomatic solution to all this?" We ponder that maybe he is the Antichrist cause the Antichrist is supposed to promote peace, right?

So when a guy gets up on stage and acts like a belligerent racist douchebag that wants to ban Muslims and start a bunch of wars, Evangelicals can be like, "Well he's not proposing peace so he can't be the Antichrist!"

It's the most backwards thinking I've ever seen. If Jesus ever does have a second coming, the Evangelicals will nail him to a cross while touting the virtues of Donald Trump. Those virtues, btw, include:

1. Gluttony
2. Lust
3. Greed
4. Pride
5. Envy
6. Sloth
7. Wrath
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby aviel » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:05 pm

Just as Trump would want it, this announcement has become entirely about Trump, and not about Israel or Palestine. Unfortunately, that means discussion of the actual issue gets lost in a torrent of pundits trying to divine Trump's motivations.

Jerusalem is Israel's capital, and always has been. The Israeli government conducts its business in Jerusalem, and has done so since the state was founded. When Israel declared that Jerusalem was its capital, it only controlled territory within the 1949 Armistice Lines (this territory includes the western portion of Jerusalem). These lines mark the boundaries at which the armies stopped fighting after Israel's war for independence, and they served as de Facto borders until 1967. Most countries recognize Israel's sovereignty within the 1949 armistice lines (with the exception of a few Muslim countries who don't recognize Israel at all), and so in theory the notion that Jerusalem is Israel's capital should be uncontroversial. The capital is, after all, located in territory that the international community agrees is legitimately under Israeli control.

1949 Armistice Lines
Image


The controversy arises from multiple conflicting definitions of Jerusalem. During the Six Day War in 1967, Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan. Shortly thereafter, Israel passed a law annexing the eastern part of Jerusalem, which includes the Temple Mount and al-Aqsa Mosque (the first and third holiest places in Judaism and Islam, respectively). This annexation was not recognized by the international community, which insisted that final borders should be determined by bilateral negotiation, rather than any unilateral move.

East Jerusalem, circled in red
Image


Since then, other countries have been reluctant to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, viewing such recognition as an endorsement of Israel's claim of sovereignty over East Jerusalem. I think this confuses different issues, however. Israel established its capital in a portion of Jerusalem that most countries recognize Israel rightfully controls. They can acknowledge that Israel's capital is in Jerusalem, while still insisting that Jerusalem's final borders be decided by bilateral negotiation with Palestine. That, after all, would be Israel's stance. In every Israeli peace offer since Oslo, Israel has ceded Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem to Palestine:

Jerusalem under the Olmert Offer in 2008
Image


Trump's announcement doesn't seem to take a stance on the status of East Jerusalem. He did not declare, as right-wing Israeli politicians occasionally do, that Jerusalem will forever be Israel's "undivided" capital. Instead, he acknowledged that final borders would result from bilateral negotiations.

Of course, I'm not a diplomat, so none of this should be read as a judgment of the political wisdom of Trump's announcement. I don't know that it helps Israel, or anyone else. But I think it's not only reasonable to recognize that Jerusalem is Israel's capital, but hard to argue that it isn't.

Recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, however, is just symbolic by itself. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem has more practical implications. It could cost over a billion dollars, and be difficult to secure against terrorist attack. It might have been a good idea to hold off on moving the embassy to Jerusalem for practical reasons, even if it's politically justified.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby tinyrick » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:25 pm

aviel wrote:Trump's announcement doesn't seem to take a stance on the status of East Jerusalem. He did not declare, as right-wing Israeli politicians occasionally do, that Jerusalem will forever be Israel's "undivided" capital. Instead, he acknowledged that final borders would result from bilateral negotiations.


This is probably the most important nuance of this move. Just because the capitol is being moved to Jerusalem, it doesn't mean the entirety of Jerusalem is in Israeli hands. Any chance this could end up in some kind of sitcom misunderstanding where a line is drawn across the city and everyone has to stay on their side of the line, but then they talk their problems out and realize how silly they've been? I'm pretty sure the mayors of Kansas City, MO, and Kansas City, KA got stuck in an elevator together and that's why we have two different Kansas Cities.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby aviel » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:27 pm

That sitcom scenario describes a lot of the Israeli-Arab conflict, but it's taking a lot longer than 22 minutes to wrap up in a heartwarming conclusion.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby tinyrick » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:30 pm

aviel wrote:That sitcom scenario describes a lot of the Israeli-Arab conflict, but it's taking a lot longer than 22 minutes to wrap up in a heartwarming conclusion.


Glad you have a sense of humor about it. In all honesty, it took me about 5 minutes to decide to click on post reply.

I know the Kansas City comparison is laughably ignorant if I was being serious.
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby Krashlia » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:40 am

aviel wrote:That sitcom scenario describes a lot of the Israeli-Arab conflict, but it's taking a lot longer than 22 minutes to wrap up in a heartwarming conclusion.


Spoiler: show
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Re: Violence in Israel after Trump's Jerusalem move

Postby JamishT » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:00 am

tinyrick wrote:
aviel wrote:That sitcom scenario describes a lot of the Israeli-Arab conflict, but it's taking a lot longer than 22 minutes to wrap up in a heartwarming conclusion.


Glad you have a sense of humor about it. In all honesty, it took me about 5 minutes to decide to click on post reply.

I know the Kansas City comparison is laughably ignorant if I was being serious.


Kansas City, Kansas can go fuck itself, so maybe it's not too far off.
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