Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby sunglasses » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:00 pm

Marcuse wrote:
I do wish we could limit our ("our" as in "society") coverage of complaints about sexual harassment to the real actual complaints people have about people using their power to sexually abuse others. Why is it not enough to just root out the actual rape and sexual assault people have been doing? Why do we need to go after every shitty two-bit comedian turned shitty two-bit senator as well?


This 100%

I feel that all this outpouring of anything that someone has done remotely inappropriate is taking away from the more serious allegations and actual cases being investigated right now. Sexual harassment is bad, but let's be real- sexual assault is significantly worse, as is rape and sexual assault of children. While we're busy focusing on if someone pantomimed grabbing someone's tits in a pic, there's state senators being charged with soliciting minors (yes, it's from March but still). We have actual sexual assault and rape cases in which the offendersare deemed guilty and only serving a sentence in the months.

Anyway, I like what this column says. Yes, people need to speak up, but we also need to be self aware enough to prevent witch hunts and frothing up into mass hysteria.

Writing in The New Yorker this week, Masha Gessen treads lightly in making this point, warning that the #MeToo moment could devolve into “sex panic” if we’re not careful. “The distinctions between rape and coercion are meaningful, in the way it is meaningful to distinguish between, say, murder and battery,” Gessen writes.
....
That’s why Weinstein fallout could go up in smoke in a second. Because enough people believe that women are all liars, that one liar will fuck it up for all of us.

This Roy Moore Old Testament-Original Sin-Women Are Liars mindset is the worldview that needs to change in order for women to truly have access to the same opportunities that men have. But its opposite—the notion that women must be believed without any evidence whatsoever—will lead the worst among us to exploit the proof loophole and wreak as much damage as they can before their lies are discovered and skewered. At that point, the loophole irreversibly closes. And if that happens, we’re stuck in Roy Moore’s world, where men are the arbiters of morality and if women aren’t lying, they must have been asking for it.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby tinyrick » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:15 pm

Marcuse wrote:So, he took a photo where he was pretending to do something which would be wrong if he had, in fact, done it, and this is in itself sexual harassment? I find it really hard to take these things seriously when the most popular allegation is about a photo that frank(en)ly doesn't look that serious to me. Sure, it's not really appropriate, but he wasn't a senator then, so why would he hold himself as a comedian to the moral standards of a senator?

I do wish we could limit our ("our" as in "society") coverage of complaints about sexual harassment to the real actual complaints people have about people using their power to sexually abuse others. Why is it not enough to just root out the actual rape and sexual assault people have been doing? Why do we need to go after every shitty two-bit comedian turned shitty two-bit senator as well?


The photo itself isn't the problem. Here's The full story in her words. Accoding to her side of the story, Franken wrote a skit that involved him trying to kiss her and her putting her hand in the way to prevent it to get a laugh from the audience. He insisted they needed to rehearse the kiss, which she refused, but he kept insisting so she said fine. So when they rehearsed the sketch, he grabs her and shoves his tongue down her throat. She pushes him off and rebukes him, telling him not to do that again.

After the event, he gets real passive aggressive with her, like drawing devil horns on an autograph photo of them together, which seems playful to the casual observer, but could be taken as hint from someone mad at being rejected by someone who knows about the incident. This culminated into him eventually doing this photo.

Al Franken, in his apology, does state he remembers those events differently, but doesn't elaborate. What it looks like to me is, Al made a pass at a woman and stepped over the line. She rebuked him. He got angry at being rejected, then started getting pissy with her. This is shitty behaviour, but I think it's forgivable as he knows it's wrong and changed his behavior afterward. This is a lot different than the men who assault women then tell them, "If you tell anybody about this, I'll destroy you!"
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby gisambards » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:03 pm

I think it's pretty obvious Al Franken is a bit of a creep, but as others have said given that all of this happened before he was an elected representative I think it's questionable whether, from a moral standpoint, he should be forced to resign.

But from a practical point of view, he really should step down. Balancing up how useful he is to the Democratic Party compared to how much the pro-Trump media is absolutely not going to let this go, right now, shitty as it may be, the Democrats will be better off with him gone.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby tinyrick » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:13 pm

gisambards wrote:I think it's pretty obvious Al Franken is a bit of a creep, but as others have said given that all of this happened before he was an elected representative I think it's questionable whether, from a moral standpoint, he should be forced to resign.

But from a practical point of view, he really should step down. Balancing up how useful he is to the Democratic Party compared to how much the pro-Trump media is absolutely not going to let this go, right now, shitty as it may be, the Democrats will be better off with him gone.


There may be some valid reasons for Franken to step down, but the text I bolded is not one of them. Never do anything because of "The pro-Trump media," cause Trumpers have absolutely no sense of honor. Getting rid of Franken over something like this will not result in a full disavowal of someone like Moore, who is much much worse. This comic sums up the GOP strategy I've witnessed my entire life:

Image

Followed by:

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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby Fun With Mr. Fudge » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:25 pm

gisambards wrote:But from a practical point of view, he really should step down. Balancing up how useful he is to the Democratic Party compared to how much the pro-Trump media is absolutely not going to let this go, right now, shitty as it may be, the Democrats will be better off with him gone.


I actually wonder if that wouldn't pose a bigger problem. I agree with Tiny Rick that the pro-Trump wing won't hold their own to the same standards. By treating something that isn't a firing offense as one, it will just give the Roy Moores (and Moore defenders) of the world grounds to say something like, "Why are you going after Republicans? A Democrat had to resign due to sexual misconduct. We haven't had that issue. The liberal media needs to focus on Democrats, who actually did something wrong." It would be horribly disingenuous, but exactly what I'd expect.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby iMURDAu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:41 pm

Politics used to have something called vetting. Now, even here, it doesn't matter what you did before you ran for office.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby gisambards » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:46 pm

tinyrick wrote:Never do anything because of "The pro-Trump media," cause Trumpers have absolutely no sense of honor. Getting rid of Franken over something like this will not result in a full disavowal of someone like Moore, who is much much worse.

I'm not suggesting Franken should resign because it will soften the hearts of Trump supporters everywhere and lead them to turn on Moore, and I'm not sure how you got that.
It's about giving the pro-Trump media as little ammunition as possible. Not everyone who watches pro-Trump media and not everyone who voted for Trump is a rabid Trump supporter - far from it. The more the pro-Trump media is absolutely having to bend itself over backwards to defend its own people, the more irrational it looks, and the more people who can be persuaded not to vote for Trump are going to be turned off voting for Trump.

Right now, the pro-Trump media can claim, with evidence that - while very sketchy - will convince people, that the Democrats call on Republicans who've been accused of sexual misconduct to resign but protect their own even when there's what can be spun as more definitive proof. If Franken is forced out, then they can't say that. They're forced back into just trying to explain why Roy Moore isn't that bad, or, as Mr. Fudge has suggested, they'll start claiming that the fact Democrats had a Senator who definitely did some stuff proves how immoral the Democrats are - which will look like a very weak argument if the Democrats rooted that Senator out quickly.

Franken shouldn't have to step down. But there's no good way to spin him staying, particularly as far as people who are wary of the Democrats are concerned, and plenty of bad ones. So he has to go.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby tinyrick » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:32 pm

gisambards wrote:
tinyrick wrote:Never do anything because of "The pro-Trump media," cause Trumpers have absolutely no sense of honor. Getting rid of Franken over something like this will not result in a full disavowal of someone like Moore, who is much much worse.

I'm not suggesting Franken should resign because it will soften the hearts of Trump supporters everywhere and lead them to turn on Moore, and I'm not sure how you got that.
It's about giving the pro-Trump media as little ammunition as possible. Not everyone who watches pro-Trump media and not everyone who voted for Trump is a rabid Trump supporter - far from it.


I just want to say I'm sorry if my comment came off as hostile, cause I certainly didn't intend it to be.

As far as not giving them ammunition though, I just don't see this as giving them ammunition. They'll always find more. If they can't find something, they'll claim asking for a cheese pizza at a pizza restaurant is code for a child prostitute. Like Mr. Fudge said with his comment:

Fun With Mr. Fudge wrote:By treating something that isn't a firing offense as one, it will just give the Roy Moores (and Moore defenders) of the world grounds to say something like, "Why are you going after Republicans? A Democrat had to resign due to sexual misconduct. We haven't had that issue. The liberal media needs to focus on Democrats, who actually did something wrong." It would be horribly disingenuous, but exactly what I'd expect.


Are you a psychic, Mr. Fudge:

RoyMooretweet.PNG
RoyMooretweet.PNG (30.18 KiB) Viewed 5925 times


As far as swaying independent voters is concerned, Trump's polls are cratering. Whoever believed in the fantasy that he'd pivot once elected, or even that the GOP would pivot once winning would stop "playing politics" and "govern the country," that fantasy is fading fast. Trump's true believers are about 33% of the voting population.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby Aquila89 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:07 pm

gisambards wrote:Right now, the pro-Trump media can claim, with evidence that - while very sketchy - will convince people, that the Democrats call on Republicans who've been accused of sexual misconduct to resign but protect their own even when there's what can be spun as more definitive proof. If Franken is forced out, then they can't say that.


Yes, they can, because there's always Bill Clinton. Trump deflected to Clinton when he was accused of sexual misconduct and it worked.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby ghijkmnop » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:49 pm

Redacted
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby gisambards » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:57 pm

tinyrick wrote:As far as not giving them ammunition though, I just don't see this as giving them ammunition. They'll always find more. If they can't find something, they'll claim asking for a cheese pizza at a pizza restaurant is code for a child prostitute.

Exactly. If they can't find anything, all they can do is spout conspiracy theories and nonsense.

Right now, it's absolutely giving them ammunition, as Roy Moore has demonstrated precisely. Right-wing media can now spin it as Moore, a Trump-supporting Republican, being asked to step aside immediately based on what are still unproven allegations, while a Democrat is not called upon to step down at all despite photographic evidence of sexual misconduct. I don't believe that's an accurate account of events, but it is what the right-wing media will spin it as, and I don't think one would have to be a radical right-winger to be convinced by that (which one probably would to be convinced by, for example, Pizzagate).

Trump's true believers are about 33% of the voting population.

The proportion of people in the US who are truly die-hard believers in Trump will be significantly less than that.

Aquila89 wrote:
gisambards wrote:Right now, the pro-Trump media can claim, with evidence that - while very sketchy - will convince people, that the Democrats call on Republicans who've been accused of sexual misconduct to resign but protect their own even when there's what can be spun as more definitive proof. If Franken is forced out, then they can't say that.


Yes, they can, because there's always Bill Clinton. Trump deflected to Clinton when he was accused of sexual misconduct and it worked.

It worked because he was running against Bill Clinton's wife, who had specifically defended Clinton when he was accused of sexual misconduct. If he tried it against someone else, it would look desperate, particularly if they had almost no connection to Clinton. Whereas Franken continuing to operate within the Senate provides workable ammunition against any Democrat - and in fact any possibly anti-Trump senator of either party, as seen with Moore's attack on McConnell on precisely this issue - who's called for Roy Moore to step down. If Franken resigns quickly, the general public will forget about it pretty quickly and it stops having any impact. But if he's still there while Roy Moore's still being criticised, the right-wing media and pro-Trump politicians are going to keep using him against their opponents.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby cmsellers » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:47 pm

I definitely don't think that the photo alone is particularly problematic, otherwise every twenty-something girl with a picture of her joke-humping an unsuspecting third party would be guilty of sexual harassment. It's bad judgement and a bit creepy since she's asleep, but that's it.

The thing about the Al Franken allegations is that they're not just the photo, they're also that in a kiss for a skit he used tongue, which she was really uncomfortable with. People are calling that "sexual assault," and I guess, maybe? It's clearly unnecessary to use tongue for a skit, however it doesn't rise to the level of the sexual assault Roy Moore committed.

Of course Moore's defenders are saying "look Franken admitted to sexually assaulting an adult, how is that worse than mere allegations of sexual assault against a minor?" Nevermind that those allegations are quite credible. I'd say that even if there were only a 25% chance they're true, it's still way worse than the claims about Franken being 100% true.

OTOH, the woman Franken is fake-groping claims he actually groped her and that would be a lot more problematic if true, especially combined with his impromptu use of tongue. However seeing as she was asleep and the picture shows the opposite I'm curious as to why she claimed that. I'm not saying I disbelieve her yet (I can absolutely see Franken doing that), just wondering what the basis for her claim is.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby Crimson847 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:01 am

Like most sequels, "Sexual Allegations 2" seems to just recycle all the major plot points of the first one and throw in a cheap gimmick or two to maintain the audience's interest. Hell, some of the dialogue was clearly copy-pasted directly from Sexual Allegations 1, like the reactions of the villain's supporters: "if you ignore the worst accusations and just look at the least concerning ones it's not all that bad!", "let's wait for a full investigation!", and "but somebody on the other side did worse things!".

C'mon writers, you can do better than this. For the threequel, you could have the villain turn out to actually be Jim Acosta in disguise, to set up a big reveal where it turns out sexual abuse is really the product of a vast media conspiracy to draw more viewers by combining sex and violence into one unstoppable super-story.
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby Absentia » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:04 am

Tweeden publicly shared a letter she got from Franken. It mostly echoes his public apology:

‘Dear Leeann, I want to apologize to you personally. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture. But that doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I understand why you can feel violated by that photo. I remember that rehearsal differently. But what's important is the impact on you and you felt violated by my actions, and for that I apologize. I have tremendous respect for your work for the USO. And I am ashamed that my actions ruined that experience for you. I am so sorry. Sincerely Al Franken.'
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Re: Sexual allegations 2: politician edition

Postby tinyrick » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:17 pm

I think gisambards is right Al Franken shouldn't be just let go with a slap on the wrist, but I'm just not sure what his punishment should be. I'm not a big fan of zero tolerance. I think it creates an environment where if someone was guilty of sexual misconduct, but actually felt bad about it, he'd be encouraged to lie about it and try to discredit the victim in any way possible to save his skin. It needs to be taught that good men can do awful things and change. Men can and do change, but he still needs to be punished in some way.

I think he should serve his current term as Senator, but not run for re-election. Afterwards, he could appear on talk show circuits about how to properly deal with sexual misconduct allegations that are true. There needs to be a spokesperson for the "You're not a monster for making a mistake," crowd. These women aren't trying to destroy careers. They're just seeking validation. They want to be believed. That's all. And it's not that much to ask for.
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