Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby jbobsully11 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:42 pm

Marcuse wrote:I wish I knew who the heck Louis CK was so it meant something to me that he was a shithead. Does anyone have a couple of things he has done/was in that I could use as a guide?

Personally, I’m partial to this joke he did about kids asking questions (and then more questions, and...), as well as this one about how drugs are a solution. They’re both from a number of years ago, though.
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Crimson847 wrote:In other words, transgender-friendly privacy laws don't molest people, people molest people.

(Presumably, the only way to stop a bad guy with a transgender-friendly privacy law is a good guy with a transgender-friendly privacy law, and thus transgender-friendly privacy law rights need to be enshrined in the Constitution as well)
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Krashlia » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:56 am

JamishT wrote:.

I think those who are trying to paint him as suddenly being "alt-right" comic are people who think all sexual predators must be Republican/Alt-Right, and are just trying to shove him onto "the other side" in their minds and the minds of those who pay attention to them.


The people who are trying to do that are manipulators, Priests.
Nothing but total humiliation, which will break their faith in their ability to manipulate others, and break peoples faith in their opinion, will deter them or force them to change.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Crimson847 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:37 am

Krashlia wrote:
JamishT wrote:.

I think those who are trying to paint him as suddenly being "alt-right" comic are people who think all sexual predators must be Republican/Alt-Right, and are just trying to shove him onto "the other side" in their minds and the minds of those who pay attention to them.


The people who are trying to do that are manipulators, Priests.
Nothing but total humiliation, which will break their faith in their ability to manipulate others, and break peoples faith in their opinion, will deter them or force them to change.


Y'know something that's really humiliating? Reporting sexual assault and having no one believe you.

Y'know something else that's really humiliating? When someone calls you a "nigger" and everyone in the room laughs, while you try to find words through the anger and alienation, fail, and so just lamely say "fuck you" or walk away.

Y'know a third thing that's really humiliating? Being disowned by your parents for being gay or trans or what have you.


But sure, these social justice folks probably have just never been properly humiliated before, by watching everybody shrug indifferently at a powerful man being effortlessly forgiven for sexually harassing women. That should solve the problem.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Tesseracts » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:58 am

I don't really know what the argument in this thread is about.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Krashlia » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:48 am

Crimson847 wrote:
Krashlia wrote:
JamishT wrote:.

I think those who are trying to paint him as suddenly being "alt-right" comic are people who think all sexual predators must be Republican/Alt-Right, and are just trying to shove him onto "the other side" in their minds and the minds of those who pay attention to them.


The people who are trying to do that are manipulators, Priests.
Nothing but total humiliation, which will break their faith in their ability to manipulate others, and break peoples faith in their opinion, will deter them or force them to change.


Y'know something that's really humiliating? Reporting sexual assault and having no one believe you.

Y'know something else that's really humiliating? When someone calls you a "nigger" and everyone in the room laughs, while you try to find words through the anger and alienation, fail, and so just lamely say "fuck you" or walk away.

Y'know a third thing that's really humiliating? Being disowned by your parents for being gay or trans or what have you.


But sure, these social justice folks probably have just never been properly humiliated before, by watching everybody shrug indifferently at a powerful man being effortlessly forgiven for sexually harassing women. That should solve the problem.


Except this wasn't about the sexual harassment. We already know that Louis CK is a criminal that shouldn't have been on a stage. But, that wasn't the detail they wanted us to notice. This was about some annoying cohort of people, who think their opinions matter more than others, and are in shock that a crowd might laugh at something funny that just isn't to their taste.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Krashlia » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:57 am

Marcuse wrote:I wish I knew who the heck Louis CK was so it meant something to me that he was a shithead. Does anyone have a couple of things he has done/was in that I could use as a guide?


He was a slubbish guy known for his off the walls and taboo-ish comedic routines. People thought he was inspiring and insightful, till he was found to have disgraced himself by exposing his privates in front of his peers and forcing them to watch him masturbate.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Crimson847 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am

Tesseracts wrote:I don't really know what the argument in this thread is about.


Louis CK. He's a comedian, good at telling jokes, but that's not important right now.

In all seriousness though, it mostly seems to be an argument over whether the material in the leaked set was 1) normal CK fare, 2) really rough but not excessively so for experimental material, or 3) so awful there's no defense for it from a professional comedian.

Image

Well, no realistic defense anyway...
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Krashlia » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:35 am

Crimson847 wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:I don't really know what the argument in this thread is about.


Louis CK. He's a comedian, good at telling jokes, but that's not important right now.

In all seriousness though, it mostly seems to be an argument over whether the material in the leaked set was 1) normal CK fare, 2) really rough but not excessively so for experimental material, or 3) so awful there's no defense for it from a professional comedian.

Spoiler: show
Image


Well, no realistic defense anyway...


Also whether this was about the sex assaults which is where the proper Louis CK conversation is supposed to be.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Crimson847 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:03 am

Krashlia wrote:Except this wasn't about the sexual harassment. We already know that Louis CK is a criminal that shouldn't have been on a stage. But, that wasn't the detail they wanted us to notice. This was about some annoying cohort of people, who think their opinions matter more than others, and are in shock that a crowd might laugh at something funny that just isn't to their taste.


My impression is more that there are a large group of people who found what CK did awful but also thought he could potentially come back from it if he pulled a Dan Harmon and visibly came to understand the depth of what he did wrong and learn from the experience. He sexually harassed women by exposing himself to them, which is a sex crime but as sex crimes go it's relatively minor (indecent exposure, not sexual assault as many have erroneously claimed, plus sexual harassment which is generally an administrative offense rather than a legal one). He coulda come back from it, he coulda been a standup guy as well as a standup comedian, but this set implies that he doesn't have the patience for that. Not primarily because he's making jokes about transgendered people or Parkland activists, but because he's apparently trying to stage a comeback before making things right (as above), and because he still comes across as petulant and self-pitying about what happened.

Atlantic article I posted earlier wrote:One of the key moments of the leaked set comes when someone, either by walking out or by shooting him a look, seems to question C.K. as he complains about being unable to use the word retarded. C.K. responds with a rant:

"What’re you gonna take away my birthday? My life is over; I don’t give a shit. You can, you can be offended—it’s okay. You can get mad at me. Anyway."


In that context, when it already seems like he's going to try to just act like nothing happened and get mad if that doesn't work, then the "MAGA Twitter's greatest hits" choice of material only helps confirm the fear that he's preparing to try to duck the issue by pivoting to a fanbase that doesn't care rather than owning what he did, and the crowd's laughter only helps confirm the fear that it could work.
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"If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them; but the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:25 pm

gisambards wrote:1) Criticising someone's opinion on the grounds that it's their opinion is not conducive to a good discussion. Notice how I've not done that to you, but for the record I really should point out that everything you're saying is just your opinion too, stated exactly as definitely as I've stated mine. If, in your opinion, that invalidates an argument, then you've not got a lot to go on.

2) Repeating your observation that people were laughing in no way disproves the counterargument I made last time you made that observation.

3) At no point have I said he shouldn't be allowed to perform, or at least if he is it should be because of what he's done, not because of what he's said (although frankly, it seems like you're the one being more puritan on that than me). Criticism of someone's speech is not the same as suggesting they should be banned from speaking.

And then after all that, your conclusion is that you didn't find it that funny either? What was the point of being so aggressive then?


1)Seems like you forgot what you posted:
Being offensive for the sake of comedy (as seen in, as a random example, South Park at its peak) is a lot harder. Louis CK can do it, and was very good at it. This new set is not an example of that.


I replied with:

In your opinion. You're setting your own nuances. Please don't act like, in the context of a comedian on stage at a comedy club, there's an objective way of saying someone isn't attempting humor when it's just your opinion that they weren't funny.


When your opinion is stated as fact and I remind you that it is an opinion, you take it as criticism? Are you okay?

2)You're as bad as the worst politician when you say people laughing at a comedy club could be laughing for a reason besides the person on stage telling jokes. There that's three times I've said it.

3)Your criticism of speech is to say it isn't intended as humor when it's part of a planned paid performance at a comedy club.

If I'm aggressive it's because you're being dismissive and condescending by acting as if you're the arbiter of comedy because you've performed at a club.

You've also put words in my mouth quite a few times which is why I'm quite close to blocking your posts from view. I never said "reactionary idiots" and I don't see how me not being ready to see Louis CK perform is puritan at all.

I don't actually think there is a real controversy. I only got into this debate because, while I actually don't think what CK said is really worth kicking a fuss up about, I equally don't think it's at all defensible, and people were defending it.


So you're trolling me? I defended his right to speak. The only controversy is that he's performing. Like I originally said, god forbid a comedian tell jokes on stage at a comedy club. Then you decided to troll me. Okay. I see where we're at.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby gisambards » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:10 pm

1) How exactly have I been stating things as fact as opposed to opinion? How exactly have you not been doing the same thing by whatever your definition is? For example, when you're throwing out ad hominem insults, am I meant to take them as statements of fact or as just your opinion?
2) I think responding with "you're as bad as the worst politician" to an argument you don't actually have a counterargument for is really funny (particularly when it's one that, actually, even I can admit there are some pretty good counterarguments for), and I'll be using that in future.
3) I've not said it isn't intended as humour, I've just said that I think it's so lazy that "it's meant to be funny" doesn't actually justify the offensiveness. However, even if your interpretation was correct, that's not me arguing he shouldn't be allowed to perform.

If I'm aggressive it's because you're being dismissive and condescending by acting as if you're the arbiter of comedy because you've performed at a club.

The fact I've performed at comedy clubs actually hasn't factored into the discussion of whether CK's content was funny at all. I only brought it up when the subject of the discussion was specifically on the nature of performing at comedy clubs. I do not believe it's condescending to do that - if you had some knowledge of an area I did not, I would not feel it was condescending of you to talk about it - and it in no way justifies the aggressiveness you've brought to this separate discussion.

iMURDAu wrote:You've also put words in my mouth quite a few times which is why I'm quite close to blocking your posts from view. I never said "reactionary idiots" and I don't see how me not being ready to see Louis CK perform is puritan at all.

You did use the term reactionary, and you've been more than aggressive enough about people you see as reactionary that adding a more explicit insult is pretty much paraphrasing. What I said about being puritan was actually that you expressed views on Louis CK making a comeback that were more puritan (as a synonym for hardline) than my own.

iMURDAu wrote:So you're trolling me? I defended his right to speak. The only controversy is that he's performing. Like I originally said, god forbid a comedian tell jokes on stage at a comedy club. Then you decided to troll me. Okay. I see where we're at.

I'm not trolling you. You were not defending his right to speak, because I was never challenging it. You specifically kicked off because I said I thought his set wasn't funny, and that's what you appear to have been defending this entire time. At this point it's apparent, given that you don't apparently find the set that funny and I'm not calling for his right to speak to be taken away, that you're only continuing to argue because you're convinced I've done something to upset you.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Tesseracts » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:33 pm

So, Gis and Murda, you two are arguing over weather it's okay to say CK isn't funny and how offended it is okay to be at his jokes? If I'm wrong please let me know, not just for my sake but because it would help to define the argument objectively without the personal baggage.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:20 pm

It started as me saying there's no reason to throw an outrage fit over a comedian telling jokes at a comedy club.

Louis is like that band or singer we all liked for a while then they went away (usually not for his reason) and when they came back they were a shell of themselves and kind of sucked but still had an adoring audience. I may not enjoy it as I did previously but I'm not outraged that a tiger has stripes when there's blood on it's fangs.

That was all I was trying to get across.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby gisambards » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:59 pm

That is incorrect. Saying "It started as me saying there's no reason to throw an outrage fit over a comedian telling jokes at a comedy club" implies that the person you are arguing against believes there is a reason to "throw an outrage fit", but I do not and I've made that clear. What this started as was me saying that, unlike some other people, I did think the jokes were offensive and not particularly funny, and you "throwing an outrage fit" over me saying that. Tess is correct to say that the argument is at this point over whether it's okay to say certain things, but bizarrely rather than it being whether it's okay for Louis CK to have said what he said, apparently we've got to contend over whether it's okay to criticise someone for saying the things Louis CK said.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Tesseracts » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:53 pm

I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong or unreasonable with being offended or outraged by jokes. I often like “offensive” jokes but some jokes are just bigoted or annoying. I think there is a backlash against backlash culture which makes it seem like being offended is bad in all cases but it’s not. It's only an issue if the offense is a result of not understanding the joke or if you are seeking out things to be outraged about for the sake of being outraged. I think moral outrage can be a good thing because it means we genuinely care about people getting hurt.
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