Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby ghijkmnop » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:06 pm

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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby gisambards » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:01 am

ghijkmnop wrote:This is why I disagree with the premise that a club gig is not a draft--for these guys at least.

This is where we don't disagree though. Performing at a club is absolutely a draft - it just can't be accurately described as a first draft. For the vast majority of comedians on any level, massive amounts of thought will have gone into most of any set. Much like with musicians, Western culture seems to prefer the idea that stand-up comedy is principally something you can just do, without having to practice much, if you're good at it. I think a lot of stand-ups do encourage that idea (which is understandable, some of these guys' public persona would clash with the idea of them spending hours practicing in front of a mirror) but just like for musicians, even if some great stuff does come out of a performance on the spur of the moment, for the majority of people to make it good it's got to be built on a bedrock of thought, instinct and practice.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Krashlia » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:41 am

(resentment boiling up)
I want him to be successful again.
I want him signed on for new deals and gigs, put into new shows, and winning new awards. I want him protested endlessly no matter what town he goes to, and those protests to slide off his back like a damned duck, while those protestors embarrass themselves trying. And I want them to howl on impotently about how awful it is that this offensive comedian is somehow winning the laughter of audiences wherever he goes. I want the "thoughtful" and "nuanced" writings about him of journalists by the hundreds to be flatly ignored, and their very presence on each article a net negative for the company that features it, as he rises higher and higher until he becomes a permanent fixture of their temples that they must accept and swallow whole with forced smiles. Because all it took a few seconds of watching them trying to gin outrage to remind me of how much I have had it up to HERE with these PRIESTS!

(Heavy breathing... subsides)
Oh my, Just how did he escape those scandals unscathed?
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby iMURDAu » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:04 pm

gisambards wrote:
ghijkmnop wrote:This is why I disagree with the premise that a club gig is not a draft--for these guys at least.

This is where we don't disagree though. Performing at a club is absolutely a draft - it just can't be accurately described as a first draft. For the vast majority of comedians on any level, massive amounts of thought will have gone into most of any set. Much like with musicians, Western culture seems to prefer the idea that stand-up comedy is principally something you can just do, without having to practice much, if you're good at it. I think a lot of stand-ups do encourage that idea (which is understandable, some of these guys' public persona would clash with the idea of them spending hours practicing in front of a mirror) but just like for musicians, even if some great stuff does come out of a performance on the spur of the moment, for the majority of people to make it good it's got to be built on a bedrock of thought, instinct and practice.


Just a hypothetical:

Say a comedian is working on the road and comes up with a new idea they'd like to try out. How and where would they test this concept that isn't yet a fully formed joke?
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Marcuse » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:11 pm

Why're we arguing around the mechanics of developing a joke? Isn't the thread supposed to be about this dude's supposed sexual harassment? I really don't think it's necessary to deconstruct the particulars of how a joke is used, created or disseminated in order to discuss that.

I wish I knew who the heck Louis CK was so it meant something to me that he was a shithead. Does anyone have a couple of things he has done/was in that I could use as a guide?
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby iMURDAu » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:39 pm

Marcuse wrote:Why're we arguing around the mechanics of developing a joke? Isn't the thread supposed to be about this dude's supposed sexual harassment?


I tried. I mentioned it twice and apparently the notion was vaporized.

My whole issue with the faux outrage over his set is that it's not real outrage. Or if it is then people are so far past the point of reasoning that there's no helping the humans. I mean, it's public record what he did and he admitted to it. But months later let's get all pissy because he as a long time comedian tells jokes in a comedy club. The reactionaries who want to censor are missing the point. It's not that he made fun of the Parkland kids or says he won't use preferred pronouns it's that he, and idk if anyone remembers, asked younger female comedians to watch him masturbate.

Ok. That's the problem. That's what people should be upset about. There's a problem with the media (and people in general) in that they want something to go away by making it the biggest thing in the history of ever. If the notion is really "fuck Louis CK" then why put him on blast all over the internet? He's been all over the news for his comedy without releasing a special, doing a single talk show or podcast, or anything a working comedian does to promote their material.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby gisambards » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:39 pm

So all the people who are annoyed that, not only has he made such a quick comeback from sexual assault, but that it's been by spouting offensive non-jokes in the hope of appealing to a group who have a track record of a) liking offensiveness for its own sake and b) defending celebrities they see as on their side vehemently from sexual assault allegations are reactionary idiots who don't care about the sex crimes and just want to censor things, while you, who are just annoyed he made a quick comeback from sexual assault but don't care about the specifics, are a voice of reason who can dictate what's right and wrong with society? I feel like there's not enough of a distinction between those two groups to have such polar opposite opinions of them.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby ghijkmnop » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:13 pm

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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Absentia » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:27 pm

gisambards wrote:So all the people who are annoyed that, not only has he made such a quick comeback from sexual assault, but that it's been by spouting offensive non-jokes in the hope of appealing to a group who have a track record of a) liking offensiveness for its own sake and b) defending celebrities they see as on their side vehemently from sexual assault allegations are reactionary idiots who don't care about the sex crimes and just want to censor things, while you, who are just annoyed he made a quick comeback from sexual assault but don't care about the specifics, are a voice of reason who can dictate what's right and wrong with society? I feel like there's not enough of a distinction between those two groups to have such polar opposite opinions of them.


I think it's fair to ask whether there's anything he could do, other than sitting on his couch and weeping into a carton of ice cream, that would please people who are upset about what he did. I mean, he's a shock comic. There's always going to be something there for people to hate if they've already made up their minds to hate him. And maybe he deserves it, but it does feel a little hollow to criticize him for making the same kind of jokes (funny or not) that made him famous in the first place.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby iMURDAu » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:28 pm

gisambards wrote:So all the people who are annoyed that, not only has he made such a quick comeback from sexual assault, but that it's been by spouting offensive non-jokes


I stopped taking your post seriously right there. He's on stage at a comedy club. So all the people that are laughing at his jokes in the clips I heard are what then? Laughing at him ironically?

Why are people not allowed to like offensiveness for its own sake? Find your favorite comedy shows and movies and set them on fire please. edit: Or mine at least. The South Park movie comes to mind.

I don't like that he's made a quick comeback, personally I'm not ready to hear from Louis for a while. But here's the thing. I didn't seek him out. Until a shitton of people made it a big deal to where I had to hear what he said to see what the hubbub is all about.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby gisambards » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:33 pm

Absentia wrote:I think it's fair to ask whether there's anything he could do, other than sitting on his couch and weeping into a carton of ice cream, that would please people who are upset about what he did. I mean, he's a shock comic. There's always going to be something there for people to hate if they've already made up their minds to hate him. And maybe he deserves it, but it does feel a little hollow to criticize him for making the same kind of jokes (funny or not) that made him famous in the first place.

I think it's true he would have got an internet hate mob no matter what he did, but I really don't think that means that some criticism isn't deserved based on what he did choose to do. He is a shock comic, and he can be a very good one. But being a good shock comic has never been about just saying offensive things, it's always been about being funny in a shocking way. And I really don't think CK can be considered to have been even noticeably trying for that in this set.
iMURDAu wrote:I stopped taking your post seriously right there. He's on stage at a comedy club. So all the people that are laughing at his jokes in the clips I heard are what then? Laughing at him ironically?

The laughter probably comes from a range of factors - as examples, audiences have often drunk a lot; a lot of people are going to laugh at anything a comedian as famous as Louis CK says on stage, even if he'd gone up and delivered an equally unfunny heartfelt expression of regret he'd have probably gotten a lot of laughs (see for proof Jerry Seinfeld and Michael Richards' serious attempt to apologise on Letterman after Richards' infamous outburst at the Laugh Factory); and of course, a lot of people do genuinely find things such as calling mentally disabled people retarded inherently funny, and one does suspect that is the demographic CK is now trying to appeal to.
Why are people not allowed to like offensiveness for its own sake? Find your favorite comedy shows and movies and set them on fire please. edit: Or mine at least. The South Park movie comes to mind.

Because offensiveness for its own sake is a) just offensive and nothing else, and b) something any idiot can do. And yes, there are audiences for it, but that shouldn't make it something to aspire to. It certainly shouldn't be something a very talented comedian resorts to in an attempt to get back in people's good books. Being offensive for the sake of comedy (as seen in, as a random example, South Park at its peak) is a lot harder. Louis CK can do it, and was very good at it. This new set is not an example of that.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby iMURDAu » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:01 pm

In your opinion. You're setting your own nuances. Please don't act like, in the context of a comedian on stage at a comedy club, there's an objective way of saying someone isn't attempting humor when it's just your opinion that they weren't funny.

I can't argue with you on this any longer. You stated there's a range of factors that cause people to laugh. From what I heard after each punchline there was laughter coming from the audience. That isn't random, it isn't impeccable timing caused by alcohol consumption, and I doubt they'd just laugh if a comedian went up there and said "anything".

He went on stage. He told jokes. People laughed.

You're twisting that into "nah maybe not because of what he said but for many reasons". You don't even consider them jokes because you didn't find them up to par. What is going on that you're so blinded by the content of his material that you think he shouldn't be allowed to even try it out in front of an audience?

Maybe his mind isn't working on the level it used to because he hasn't beaten off in front of anyone in a while and his comedy is suffering for it. Or maybe he's trying a comeback and is testing material in front of an audience to see what works and there's been a massive over reaction to somebody who is just doing their job. This wasn't a twitter rant, a public meltdown, an off the rails talk show appearance, or anything where you would be surprised to see someone making those remarks. Jokes at a comedy club.

That you didn't find funny and want to act like nobody else should either. They weren't great, I'm not eagerly anticipating a special from him based on them, but I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to write and perform the material he chooses to. That's crazy.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby gisambards » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:05 pm

1) Criticising someone's opinion on the grounds that it's their opinion is not conducive to a good discussion. Notice how I've not done that to you, but for the record I really should point out that everything you're saying is just your opinion too, stated exactly as definitely as I've stated mine. If, in your opinion, that invalidates an argument, then you've not got a lot to go on.

2) Repeating your observation that people were laughing in no way disproves the counterargument I made last time you made that observation.

3) At no point have I said he shouldn't be allowed to perform, or at least if he is it should be because of what he's done, not because of what he's said (although frankly, it seems like you're the one being more puritan on that than me). Criticism of someone's speech is not the same as suggesting they should be banned from speaking.

And then after all that, your conclusion is that you didn't find it that funny either? What was the point of being so aggressive then?
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby Absentia » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:59 pm

I guess my question is, what does the relative funniness of his new act have to do with the sexual harassment issue? Does the fact that these jokes are "lazy" change how you feel about what he did? Would you be more inclined to forgive him if he was funnier?

Not trying to pick on you, I'm just having a hard time piecing together what the controversy is here beyond the fact that he's performing at all.
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Re: Louis CK sexual harassment "rumors"

Postby gisambards » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:38 pm

Absentia wrote:I guess my question is, what does the relative funniness of his new act have to do with the sexual harassment issue? Does the fact that these jokes are "lazy" change how you feel about what he did? Would you be more inclined to forgive him if he was funnier?

It doesn't have much to do with it at all, besides the aforementioned possibility that the slightly altered tone is intended to appeal to a demographic that are much more forgiving of sexual assault (although even then, I think it's coming much more laziness than malice). There were also a couple of lines in the set that could be interpreted as him coming across as angry at the backlash he had over the sexual assault, which clashes with his claims of atonement (which, for something as serious as sexual assault, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect from someone who wants to be accepted back into most people's good books) and so that's a little bit of a factor.
Given that he did own up to what he did and did appear to atone, I think if his new stand-up had just had more effort put into it - which shock comedy needs to be successful - then I'd be okay with it. I think that it's just very poor showing to come back with something so lazily offensive.

Not trying to pick on you, I'm just having a hard time piecing together what the controversy is here beyond the fact that he's performing at all.

I don't actually think there is a real controversy. I only got into this debate because, while I actually don't think what CK said is really worth kicking a fuss up about, I equally don't think it's at all defensible, and people were defending it.
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